[TEORIA] "We are the causes of our own suffering.."

[Moyses]

Sto leggendo da un po' di tempo vari post e idee postate qui e lì per la rete, ce ne sono alcune davvero interessanti nate alla luce di quello che è stato il finale della 5 stagione... più o meno eleganti, tutte cercano di spiegare il tutto, ciascuno concentrandosi su aspetti specifici della trama. Sono sicuro che una spiegazione del tutto ancora non può essere data, tuttavia ho constatato che le idee più interessanti hanno come base l'idea della ciclicità degli eventi. So che si è già parlato di Loop, ma voglio presentarvi quello che sono riuscito a racimolare come concetti.

"NOI SIAMO LA CAUSA DELLE NOSTRE SOFFERENZE!" leggeva Sawyer nella stanza 23 sul monitor, verissimo! perchè se avessi studiato bene l'inglese non starei qui a rodermi il fegato per non riuscire a tradurre alcuni link rigorosamente in inglese che parlano di quello di cui voglio parlarvi io, spero almeno a voi servano come spunto e poi magari, chissà, qui potremmo discutere di quelle che sono le nostre opinioni a riguardo.

LA FACCIO BREVE: sto fantomatico loop che ci dovrebbe essere dovrebbe riguardare i nostri personaggi, c'è un'interessante teoria che spopola su darkufo di recente... per leggerla clicca qui; insieme ai video postati da Duphe che potete vedere qui, possiamo dire che abbiamo molti concetti tanto interessanti quanto bizzarri su cui divertirci a ipotizzare:

ciascuno in Lost è l'artefice delle sue sofferenze, il finale lo abbiamo già visto sparso in più episodi ma non l'abbiamo colto.
_ Hurley rimarrà sull'isola nel passato nel territorio oscuro, conoscerà un uccello al quale insegnerà il suo nome (quello che noi vediamo nella prima stagione) e sarà lui stesso a registrare i numeri nella torre radio, per sfatare la sua presunta "sfiga"

_ Jack vecchio che arriva dal passato, opererà Sarah e la farà camminare, lasciando basito il jack giovane sull'esito della sua operazione... la stessa Sarah si innamorerà poi del Jack vecchio, ed ecco perchè è così motivata nel lasciarlo e nel non dire chi è la sua nuova fiamma

_ Sawyer è il padre di se stesso, e non ho capito per quale motivo si suiciderà.... a proposito di questa cosa vedete il link che vi riporto sotto, spero qualcuno me lo sappia spiegare

_Charlie Hume, figlio di Desmond e Penny, sarebbe Charles Wildmore, e questo spiegherebbe il rancore che ha Charles verso Desmond/suo padre per qualcosa che magari Desmond farà

_ Kate sarebbe da sempre stata innamorata di Aaron (quello che nel suo passato veniva dal futuro), l'aeroplanino famoso era uno di quelli che si vedono girare sulla culla di Aaron che abbiamo visto

_ La bara del primo episodio non apparterrebbe a Christian ma a Locke

insomma... la cosa è complicata, ma ovunque se ne parla tanto, in inglese! noi siamo rimasti un po' arretrati su queste idee che per quanto fantasiose, sembrano riscuotere entusiasmo.

[melmoth]

francamente alcune parti della teoria mi sembrano un po' forzatine, altri surreali, altre nonsense (non ho capito chi sarebbe l'Aaron di cui Kate è innamorata )

in tutto questo hai tenuto conto del fatto che Dark Ufo pullula di spoiler e rumors, giusto? sai, prevenire è meglio che curare

[freex]

Ho fatto un giro su darkufo ma non l'ho trovata questa teoria...

[Ford_modello_Sawyer]

Originally Posted by Moyses

Hurley rimarrà sull'isola nel passato nel territorio oscuro, conoscerà un uccello al quale insegnerà il suo nome (quello che noi vediamo nella prima stagione) e sarà lui stesso a registrare i numeri nella torre radio, per sfatare la sua presunta "sfiga"

QUESTA E' FATTIBILE

_ Jack vecchio che arriva dal passato, opererà Sarah e la farà camminare, lasciando basito il jack giovane sull'esito della sua operazione... la stessa Sarah si innamorerà poi del Jack vecchio, ed ecco perchè è così motivata nel lasciarlo e nel non dire chi è la sua nuova fiamma

QUINDI L'IMMAGINE DELLA PRIMA PUNTATA DELLA SECONDA STAGIONE IN CUI SI VEDE JACK GIOVANE CHE SI ACCINGE AD OPERARE SARAH E' UNA ILLUSIONE OTTICA?

_ Sawyer è il padre di se stesso, e non ho capito per quale motivo si suiciderà.... a proposito di questa cosa vedete il link che vi riporto sotto, spero qualcuno me lo sappia spiegare

UNO COME FA AD ESSERE PADRE DI SE STESSO

_Charlie Hume, figlio di Desmond e Penny, sarebbe Charles Wildmore, e questo spiegherebbe il rancore che ha Charles verso Desmond/suo padre per qualcosa che magari Desmond farà

COME SI SPIEGA CHE WIDMORE E' STATO ESILIATO DALL'ISOLA PERCHE' HA AVUTO PENNY DA UN ALTRA DONNA?

_ Kate sarebbe da sempre stata innamorata di Aaron (quello che nel suo passato veniva dal futuro), l'aeroplanino famoso era uno di quelli che si vedono girare sulla culla di Aaron che abbiamo visto

L'AEROPLANINO ERA DEL MIGLIORE AMICO DI KATE DELL'INFANZIA, E NON HO MENZIONE DI PERSONE DEL SUO PASSATO CHE VENGONO DAL FUTURO

_ La bara del primo episodio non apparterrebbe a Christian ma a Locke

QUESTO BASATO SU COSA?

insomma... la cosa è complicata, ma ovunque se ne parla tanto, in inglese! noi siamo rimasti un po' arretrati su queste idee che per quanto fantasiose, sembrano riscuotere entusiasmo.
Iniziate dai video di "Duphe" su youtube e fatemi sapere cosa ne pensate. A presto!

RISCUOTONO ENTUSIASMO PERCHE' ORMAI SIAMO ARRIVATI COME SI DICE "ALLA FRUTTA"..NON SI SA PIU' CHE DIRE, IO VISTO CHE ORMAI TRA UN PAIO DI MESI INIZIA LA STAGIONE EVITEREI DI FORMULARE NUOVE TEORIE FANTASIOSE.

PS: non riesco a postare link perchè non sono un utente con almeno 10 post, appena trovo la teoria interessante di cui vi parlavo ( in inglese ) cercherò di farvela avere, a presto

Niente di personale cmq

[Faith]

Scusami, ma "Sawyer è il padre di sé stesso" è un concetto da me non concepibile. Solo Fry può essere nonno di sé stesso, mi auguro che i gradi di parentela di James siano regolari


Davvero mi auguro non ci siano spoiler, nel caso si trattasse di informazioni di Darkufo, ecco.

[Giulio]

Al tempo dell'apparizione del nonno di Jack anche io avevo ipotizzato che Jack fosse il nonno di se stesso, ma questo perché sono fissato con il paradosso del nonno in tutte le sue possibili versioni...

...ed in tema di parentele pazze avevo ipotizzato (per scherzo) che Chang fosse non solo il padre di se stesso ma anche la madre, perché con tecnologie future aveva cambiato sesso (e naturalmente si era fatto ricrescere la mano ed era ringiovanito/a) ed era tornato/a nel passato...

Per Sawyer la vedo dura, avrebbe anche qualche problema edipico (per Chang sarebbe stato solo narcisistico) e quando compie il tutto lo compirebbe sapendo bene di causarsi gravi danni, saprebbe che sotto al letto c'è lui bambino...

[legax]

Sapete invece che la gag di Sawyer che è suo padre mi intriga non poco.
Ed in effetti anche io avevo avuto qualche dubbio sul nonno di Jack.
Alcune cose sono in effetti fantasiose (la storia di Hurley in particolare). D'altra parte "tentarle tutte" non ci costa nulla...e chissà che un giorno, a furia di dirne di cotte e di crude, non si possa dire "l'avevo detto io". :P

[bettingamlet]

certo....perchè no...

direi che manca solo che Sun e Jin sono gemelli siamesi e c'era quasi tutto...

[Moyses]

Questa è la teoria che ho trovato su Darkufo della quale vi parlavo... ve la riporto per intero, chi volesse leggere l'originale (identica) copi e incolli un pezzo di testo tra virgolette in un qualsiasi motore di ricerca.
E' in inglese, ma è scritta in modo pulito ed è di facile intuizione, per i più negati tuttavia, copiandola e incollandola nel traduttore di Google viene fuori qualcosa di altamente comprensibile; come potrete leggere oltre a fare riferimenti ad alcuni dei punti che ho citato sopra, introduce un'interessante punto di vista (magari inverosimile ma ben strutturato) sul mostro di fumo alias Cerberus (il riferimento al gioco degli scacchi fatto da Mikhail lo trovo veramente interessante)...

Quello che non trovate qui di quanto scritto sopra invece lo trovate qui:
youXube.com/user/Duphe/ (sostituite la "X" con "t"... scusate ma non posso postare link)... ci sono tre link interessanti: uno parla di una visione generale del tema (con i sottotitoli ai dialoghi (in inglese) che più o meno aiutano), poi ce n'è uno su Locke e uno su Sawyer che riporta le prove (secondo l'autore) a quello che ho già scritto... NB: espandete il box "ulteriori informazioni" sotto il video, e leggete quello che dice.

per quanto sia stupido scervellarsi ancora su teorie a 80 giorni dal pilot della series finale, IO ADOROOO FARLO!!!! NAMASTE!!!!

Lost is a timeless story of good vs evil, personal choice vs. slavery, and freedom vs. fate.
As we were told in the beginning by John Locke, ‘two sides, one light, one dark’. The Light Side, as you can probably guess, is the side of Good, Freedom, & personal choice.

On the Light Side we have Jacob. Jacob is the personification of good. His character is based on an archetype that has popped up in every culture and religion since the beginning of time(see Divine Comedy, Paradise Lost, New Testament, Star Wars, and so on). He is compassionate. He is omniscient. He is optimistic. He invites you to his Island. He lives on the beach, having nothing to hide. He believes in and practices personal freedom. He believes in evolution, growth, change, and free will. But Jacob wants YOU to WANT to change. He will give you ‘little pushes’ along the way, like the Apollo Candy Bar stuck in the snack machine, and help you get to the point where YOU are ready to change. He does not lie to you or trick you into making the right choice for the wrong reason. He does not give orders, he ASKS. He asks Sawyer if he wants a pen. He asks Sayid for directions. He asks Jack if the extra candy bar is his. He asks Kate if she’ll steal again. He tells Hurley he has a choice. He ‘offers’ Sun & Jin his blessing. Even when faced with certain death, Jacob tells Ben that he has a choice, that he is not a slave, no matter what Fake Locke has told him. This is a man who does not compromise his principles. They are bedrock. We can analyze what has happened and know if he’s involved based on the method and the motive(more of that later). Most importantly though, Jacob wants wholesale change. He wants mankind to change. He is looking for a macro-event. This evolutionary completion is the ‘only ends once’ scenario that Jacob speaks of on the beach. Everything else is just progress, mankind inching closer to mass enlightenment. But there is opposition.

Thus we have the Dark Side. Nemesis is the personification of evil. His character is based on the timeless archetype of the mischievous trickster. He is not omniscient, rather, he relies on the tools and techniques of man. He believes mankind will not change. He is pessimistic. He is fatalistic. He believes the same cycle will repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat....no change whatsoever. He thinks men will continue to crumble in the face of great challenges, due to ambition, greed, guilt, vengeance, and weakness. But he is not passive like Jacob. Nemesis gets involved. Nemesis tests you. Nemesis tempts you. He learns your weakness and exploits it. Should he present you with a test you’ve failed in the past, and you demonstrate a capacity for change, you are a threat to him. He does not want change to happen. This is his argument with Jacob. Nemesis’ only code is that he has no code. He will lie, cheat, steal, kill, and mass-murder. He will haunt you with your dead relatives. He will exploit you emotionally and psychologically. He finds your weakness and applies pressure. If you’re strong, you must be eliminated...Nemesis can’t have agents of change running around, helping man progress. Nemesis applies this same technique to groups of people. If Nemesis should encounter your group, he will find the weakness. He will test everyone in it, kill the strong, and promote the weak. Infiltrate, divide, conquer, exterminate, assimilate the remaining weak people into a group and hand them orders to follow. Nemesis has one goal in mind: change must not happen.

Thus, we now know the methods of the opposing sides. The Light Side hopes that you’ll make the right decision on your own and gives you the space to do so. The Dark Side will not see around and hope you screw up, The Dark Side makes SURE you have every opportunity to fail. He stacks the deck. He baits you. He tricks you. He CHEATS. He will do whatever he can to avoid the ‘only ends once’ mass-evolution of man scenario that Jacob assures him is unavoidable.

The duality of this conflict is represented in every layer of the show and has been embedded from the start. As the following will demonstrate, the writers have not been winging it...we can all exhale. Change vs Fate has been there from day one. Charlie the drug addict writes ‘fate’ on his knuckles

The Dharma Initiative’s stated goal is to change one number in The Valenzetti Equation, an equation that supposedly predicts the end of the world. They attempt a multi-pronged attack in various scientific fields, each of which seeks change in said field. In Room 23, where Karl was being held, they try to change your mind. They recondition Polar Bears to live in the tropic. They experiment with time-travel. They experiment with The Hawthorne effect, hoping that observation will change the outcome. It’s also important to note, that while there was a lot of building about this scary interrogator in the jungle, they do not torture. They just set you free a little bit and you do the talking. They also vote and confer with each other about major decisions. They do not have a dictatorship, they are peaceful...it’s practically a hippie resort. They are science, they are progress, they are change, and they are aligned with The Light Side. They are agents of change. Thus, for Nemesis, they are a threat.

The Others hate change and choice and personal freedom. They believe in fate and following orders without asking questions. Just ask Ms. Hawking, former leader of The Others, and she’ll tell you that everyone is doomed, that the cycle is perpetual. She believes in this so much that she doesn’t attempt to avoid shooting her own son(Faraday in 1977) even though she’s well aware that her actions will directly lead to it eventually happening. She wants Desmond to press the button...again, and again, and again, and again. The Others do not like change and similarly, they do not like visitors. One of their primary objectives is to ‘protect the Island’ by keeping people away and keeping people from leaving. They want to slow progress down to a halt. They want to stop change dead in it’s tracks. The Others are the weaklings of every group who has come to the Island, hand-selected for their inability to question orders and their lack of fortitude. There is no room for personal choice with The Others, you follow the rules, you obey your superior officer, because as Bonnie states in Through The Looking Glass ‘the minute I start questioning orders, this whole thing, everything that we're doing here, falls apart.’ The Others put Nemesis’ methods into practice. They wear beards and trick you. They lie cheat and steal. They have Ethan infiltrate you. They kidnap your child and use him as leverage. They figure out your weakness, like Jack’s feelings for Kate, and they apply pressure. They manipulate you. The methods of Benjamin Linus are the methods of Nemesis. The Others are, and always have been, aligned with The Dark Side.

Ahh but I can hear your thoughts already...if they follow Jacob, how are they on The Dark Side? Simple. They’re not following Jacob and they never were following him. Jacob has nothing to do with The Others. Jacob does not give orders, Jacob let’s you choose. You can even choose the wrong path if you want, but it’s your choice. So why is it so many of The Others think they’re following Jacob? To answer that, I first have to tell you a story about a literal and figurative ‘loophole’
continua...

[Moyses]

In 1954, John Locke walks up to Richard Alpert and informs him that he’s from the future, that Jacob sent him, and that he is Richard’s leader. Richard’s eyes light up at the mention of Jacob. This is the birth of the loophole. For the first time in the history of the conflict, Nemesis is now able to level the playing field(for the moment, humor me and pretend that Nemesis knows everything that Richard Alpert knows). He has been fighting a losing battle, going to war with a combatant who knows the future and thus can’t be blind-sided or plotted against. How do you win when your opponent knows everything that will happen? Thanks to time-travel, Nemesis now has the same abilities, albeit they are limited. He now can look into the future. He knows when John Locke will be born. This is his first, but not last, fruit from the tree of knowledge. Daniel Faraday time-jumps to 1977 and hands his mother, Eloise Hawking, a journal detailing all of the events of the next 30 years(This is a rather cheap plot device, how does the journal not reset and become empty? It’s just like the compass and we have no choice but to accept it as rational). It details every single aspect of The Dharma Initiative, a foe that The Others dismantle at the seams. Nemesis, like Jacob in his battle with Nemesis, is now one step ahead of The Dharma Initiative. In turn, Nemesis can now prove to his people, his army of weaklings, that he has communication with a divine source. He tells them that in 2004 a man named John Locke will crash onto the Island. He has the flight manifest from Faraday’s journal. He knows everyone on board. He expands his operations. He follows all of the survivors of Oceanic 815 from birth to 2004. He knows their weaknesses. He knows how to tempt them. He knows how to test them. He knows how to manipulate them. Nemesis has found a way to be omniscient, and he uses this phony power to control The Others. They never meet Jacob, they never see Jacob, but they trust that Jacob is real and they’ve learned that Jacob knows everything. Jacob is not to be questioned. As Mikhail says ‘the man who brought us here is a great, wise man’. But it isn’t Jacob. This is why Ben does not heal. This is why Jaocb says ‘what about you?’ to Ben. Ben was never working for Jacob. Jacob doesn’t give orders, Nemesis does.

So how does Nemesis get his orders out to his weak-minded followers? Well we’ve learned that Ben Linus has never met ‘Jacob’, but rather, receives lists(now you know where the lists come from...phony-omniscience and intel gathering) and orders supposedly passed down from Jacob to Richard Alpert. Thus we know that Nemesis has infiltrated the very top of The Others’ power structure. This leaves us with two options. Either Richard Alpert, like the rest of The Others, has been deceived, or he is a willing participant. I have bad news everyone, we’ve been duped, it’s the second option. Richard Alpert is not only working for Nemesis....Richard Alpert IS Nemesis. One of your first thoughts(other than ‘what the @#&$’) is that we’ve seen Nemesis, imitating John Locke, having a conversation with Richard Alpert. How can one Nemesis be two people simultaneously? In order for me to prove Richard Alpert is Nemesis, I must first prove that Nemesis is more than one person. I call them Team Nemesis.

Dante’s ‘Nemesis’ in ‘The Divine Comedy’ is a 3-headed monster, representing the ‘inverted Christian Trinity’, who cannot create life and thus imitates life. It is a trickster. It lies and cheats. Notice this quote from Mikhail to John Locke in Enter 77. Mikhail: Ha! Don't waste your time. For ten years I have tried to defeat that game. But it was programmed by three grand masters. And it cheats’. Three grand masters who cheat. That, my friends, is Team Nemesis, aka The Dark Side, aka the bad guys. Rousseau’s team arrives and is baited into entering the Smoke Monster’s hole. Rousseau does not enter. Later, supposedly due to a sickness which makes them ‘not themselves’, Rousseau is forced to kill all three of them. One of them is the father of the baby growing in her womb. He tries to kill her. He tells her the Smoke Monster is not a threat and is merely ‘a highly sophisticated security system’ for the Island. Three people simultaneously ‘not themselves’ after meeting the Smoke Monster. The sickness? There is none. They are not the same 3 people. They are being imitated, simultaneously. Rousseau knew it wasn’t the father of her child, she could detect a difference...much like John Locke seemed very ‘un-Locke-like’ to all of us during this past season. Nemesis is not one man, Nemesis is Team Nemesis. This is why Radzinsky named the Smoke Monster as Cerberus.

So now we know that Nemesis can be more than one person, thus Richard Alpert is a candidate for review. There is significant evidence that Alpert is in fact, part of Team Nemesis. For starters, Richard Alpert is ‘as old as the island itself’. Well we know for a fact that only two other characters in Lost can make that claim, them being Jacob & Nemesis. We know they were around when The Black Rock arrived and it’s safe to assume they were around for many years before that. Also, like Jaocb, Richard Alpert does not age. Alpert explains ‘I'm this way because of Jacob.’ We assume of course that Jacob somehow blessed Alpert the gift of eternal life. Yet Alpert does not communicate with Jacob. Alpert get’s blindsided by a Fake Locke. Alpert gives orders and runs an organization that stand in stark contrast to Jacob’s principles. How is it that Alpert got the gift of eternal life and spends every day of it undermining the very man who supposedly gave him this gift???? He doesn’t. The reason Richard Alpert doesn’t age is because he is a Nemesis. He is imitating a person long since dead. Notice in LaFleur that Richard Alpert storms into the Dharma barracks and leaves with a dead body(Paul, Amy’s husband). We’re told that this is to convince his people that there were losses on both sides. This is not the case. Richard Alpert needed Paul’s body. Nemesis needed Pauls’ identity. Nemesis needed to apply pressure to a weak link in the Dharma chain. Sure, there remains the slight possibility that Alpert was just following orders, but combined with the fact he doesn’t age, I think it’s more than likely he is in fact one third of the 3 headed beast, Dante’s ‘Inverted Christian Trinity’...this phrase will prove to be very important, remember it.

Team Nemesis will stop at nothing to make you crack. If they can access your dead father’s body, they will imitate him and lure you into the jungle and over a cliff. If they can access your dead brother, they will lure you into the jungle for you to be slammed against a tree. They use living relatives as well. Juliet’s sister’s health is used to leverage her. Walt is used to control Michael. Aaron. They never stop attacking and they know where to strike. For Dharma, the two weak links are Amy and Young Ben Linus. Team Nemesis knows this, for who has ventured out into the dark territory? Ben literally tells Richard Alpert that he wants out, that he hates everyone...he is a scared defenseless angry little boy and Team Nemesis pounces on him ruthlessly. The appropriate pressure is applied. And how is this done? Using Ben’s dead mother, Emily. I have no idea how Team Nemesis got access to her body in order to imitate it, but this is what happened. This is why Ben says his mother, who died during childbirth, taught him how to read. He was not kidding. His mother has been whispering in his ear and shaping his mind. But it wasn’t her, it was Team Nemesis. Team Nemesis is calling the shots. Team Nemesis ordered the Purge. Team Nemesis and Ben’s dead mother convinced him to kill his father. It was practice. Years later, Ben would be asked to kill his father yet again, when Fake Locke and Team Nemesis order him to execute Jacob. The cycle repeats. Twice, a dead relative gets Ben Linus to kill his father. Twice, a purge is ordered afterward to clean up the mess. Repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. This is a sign of Team Nemesis. They perpetuate the cycle. They use the same technique again and again. They have perfected their craft.

So where did the body for Richard Alpert come from? Here’s another pattern. Yemi is a dead body from an Island-bound vessel. Christian is a dead body from an Island-bound vessel. Locke is a dead body from an Island-Bound vessel. This is the protocol that Hawking knows to follow(Protocol, as in something to be repeated without change...it’s amazing how these themes are embedded into the show). There have been hints that Richard is somehow connected to The Black Rock. I believe that the original Richard Alpert was a dead body on an island-bound vessel, The Black Rock, and his body was used to torment and manipulate it’s inhabitants.

Anyways, back to Team Nemesis. Perhaps you disagree but at this point I’m rather convinced that Nemesis is a 3-headed foe and that Richard Alpert is one of the three prongs. But what is this Nemesis? Well for starters, it’s The Smoke Monster. We can connect the Smoke Monster directly to Nemesis in many ways. For starters, on the wall in The Smoke Monster’s chamber, we have an image of the god Anubis battling The Smoke Monster;

Here we have our 2 sides yet again, Light & Dark. Notice the outstretched hand of Anubis, a peaceful offering. Notice the horns of the smoke monster, the devil, the inverted trinity, on the left, the side of the evil. This is a picture of Jacob and The Smoke Monster. They literally drew us a picture of the two sides. However, let’s be thorough. There are more ways to connect Nemesis to The Smoke Monster.


continua...