When I see this message, I won't recognize it, because I won't have written it yet.
I still haven't seen any mention of whether we think Ben was caught on the security cam letting Sayid out, and if so, how the DI react to it if they end up saving him?
Again, this is the ONLY reason I am voting towards the idea that Ben is rescued by the Hostiles and NOT the DI.
Just so we are clear here. Is it the case that we are led to believe that Sayid shoots Ben because of the wicked person Ben grows up to be (from Sayids perspective), and we are now suggesting that the reason young Ben grows up to be a wicked person (from Sayids perspective) is because Sayid shot him in the first place?
Presuming I have that right, and I know this paradox has been talked to death, but does anyone think, or even hope that we get an explanation for this paradox. THat in affect it gets told to us at some stage how this circle of events got started. Or will it remain a mystery at the of the show as to which came first, Chicken or Egg?
But even if Sayid does have an effect on Ben's future actions, it's not really a paradox, just a question of perspective.
As far as we know, until he turns the FDW, Ben has lived in linear time and never time travelled. So from his point of view - he is born, he goes to the Island, and in 1977 a mysterious "hostile" shows up, shoots him and legs it. He survives but learns never to trust anyone - even those he is desperate to join. Presumably at some point after that he learns from Richard that Sayid wasn't actually a Hostile, and he may even figure out that he was a time traveller. In 2004, Flight 815 crashes, and when Ben finds out Sayid was on the plane, along with various other people he knew from 1977, things start to make sense and plans form in his mind...
So the "chicken or egg" question has a clear answer. In this case the question is "bullet or evil", and the answer is "bullet". Sayid experiences these events in the wrong order, because he's been travelling through time, but the bullet always happened first. The paradox only exists from his perspective. (Since we're learning about these events through Sayid's eyes, it also appears paradoxical to us, but this is half the fun of watching the show unfold )
(By way of contrast - an actual paradox would happen if Sayid killed Ben in 1977, but then Ben was still alive in 2004. That would require some kind of cop-out "alternate timeline" or "usurper Ben" explanation, as people have mentioned earlier, but I don't think this is where the show is going.)
Until TPTB actually revert the "Whatever Happened, Happened" rule and show Mrs Hawking & Daniel to be wrong, I think this "linear perspective" is how we have to understand things.
Hope that makes sense?
Last edited by fenwar; 03-28-2009 at 12:37 PM. Reason: One of my senses did not make sentence.
Yehh it makes sense to me but it still leaves us with the question of why or how the LTT came to travel back in the first place. Was it not because of a chain of events caused by their presence there in the first place? So if they were never in 1977 and doing the things we now see them doing, then the circumstances which lead them to travel back in 2007 would never have been in place and therefore they would never have travelled back.
I fully understand whats being presented to us on the show and it is intriguing to watch and see how what they do now ties back to events we saw in S1 etc. They are presenting us with the theory that "If it is going to happen, then it will happen, and if will happen then it has always happened". My logical mind see's this as a cop out. The events we are seeing in 1977 now was not always how 1977 was. It only became like that after the LTT went back in 2007. So from 2007 onwards the 1977 onwards timeline is altered and ends up leading to events we see and learn about in S1(2004). But before the LTT went back in 2007, history must have been different without their impact. My simple point being that there had to be a pre-LTT 1977-2007 and then a post-LTT 1977-2007. I think we have been presented so far with the later all through the series, but something else must have led them to travel back in time in the first place.
I just wonder if the show will stick with "If it is going to happen, then it will happen, and if will happen then it has always happened". I personally hope for something else but am not holding my breath. I can live with it if alot of the other questions are given satisfactory conclusions - Smokie, Jacob, Aaron, Four Toes etc.
"If it is going to happen, then it will happen, and if will happen then it has always happened"
people keep misquoting this, wasn't it just 'whatever happened, happened'?
and yes i do think it's important, because it implies that the OUTCOME, not the EVENTS, must remain the same. so they losties in dharma time may not be changing anything, just pushing the original 'triggers' out of the way.
then again with jin stopping whatsherface from going scoobydoo-ing in the haunted temple and sawyer and juliet saving amy, it hints at the opposite, that they WERE the original triggers. it could go either way i guess.
what ever happens, happens. so let's do it again.