05X10 "He's Our You" (Questions, Theories, Discussion)

[brendons]

You don't think that Jack saving someone is characteristic of him? I think that's exactly what he does; he always has to fix things. He did save Ben once before.

yeah but think about it

jack doesn't know the rules with "changing the past"

if he figured kid ben was dying then he would guess that :O

this would be how to get rid of the adult version

idk, it's just a guess, but obviously ben is fine

[Time Will Tell]

And how many Dharma bums does it take to put out one burning hippie bus?

Two? One to hold the hose and one to drive the bus back and forth in front of the spray?

<tap tap> Is this mic on?

[Time Will Tell]

I think Sayid just unknowingly caused "The Incident." I really think shooting Ben, a child, was the final straw between the DI and the Hostiles. Obviously Sayid isn't a Hostile, but the DI believe he is. My guess is the DI retaliate against the Hostiles, and then the Hostiles start invading the DI camp more often. I think this incident, which my guess is THE INCIDENT will eventually lead to the purge. I think Richard will tell Ben that he doesn't know a Sayid, and it will get all twisted - maybe young Ben comes up with a conspiracy that the DI used Sayid to kill him because they got wind that young Ben had been conversing with the enemy, Richard, and he's become too much of a threat to the DI. Thus young creepy Ben grows up plotting to kill all these DI people that have made his childhood a living hell. Just a Theory.


So yeah I'm with the people who say Ben is not dead...it's not plausible to the storyline

I agree that this Child-Shooting could be the turning point. Maybe Sawyer and Richard have another meeting of the minds and this is where Horace is dethroned and banished with Amy. Aaannnd... I think baby Ethan is used to seal the deal.

[renilyn]

Two? One to hold the hose and one to drive the bus back and forth in front of the spray?

<tap tap> Is this mic on?

I couldnt help but sit here and giggle to that. Thanks! lol

[JOJOVE]

I still haven't seen any mention of whether we think Ben was caught on the security cam letting Sayid out, and if so, how the DI react to it if they end up saving him?

Again, this is the ONLY reason I am voting towards the idea that Ben is rescued by the Hostiles and NOT the DI.

J

[myfourletterlie]

I still haven't seen any mention of whether we think Ben was caught on the security cam letting Sayid out, and if so, how the DI react to it if they end up saving him?

Again, this is the ONLY reason I am voting towards the idea that Ben is rescued by the Hostiles and NOT the DI.

J

I don't know..
He might've broken the camera in advance. He seems like a clever kid.
But he might've thought it wouldn't matter because he'd be gone with the hostiles.

[Cliff Hanger]

Just so we are clear here. Is it the case that we are led to believe that Sayid shoots Ben because of the wicked person Ben grows up to be (from Sayids perspective), and we are now suggesting that the reason young Ben grows up to be a wicked person (from Sayids perspective) is because Sayid shot him in the first place?
Presuming I have that right, and I know this paradox has been talked to death, but does anyone think, or even hope that we get an explanation for this paradox. THat in affect it gets told to us at some stage how this circle of events got started. Or will it remain a mystery at the of the show as to which came first, Chicken or Egg?

[fenwar]

Just so we are clear here. Is it the case that we are led to believe that Sayid shoots Ben because of the wicked person Ben grows up to be (from Sayids perspective), and we are now suggesting that the reason young Ben grows up to be a wicked person (from Sayids perspective) is because Sayid shot him in the first place?
Presuming I have that right, and I know this paradox has been talked to death, but does anyone think, or even hope that we get an explanation for this paradox. THat in affect it gets told to us at some stage how this circle of events got started. Or will it remain a mystery at the of the show as to which came first, Chicken or Egg?

I think we've already seen that Ben is quite capable of being manipulative, almost to the point of Pure Evil - starting out with the sandwiches, right through to a burning bus (which could easily have killed the people in the house it hit), everything he does is to reach his own goal of defecting to the hostiles, with little or no thought about the consequences for anyone else. And we've also seen the bad influence of his father, and the vision of his mother / meeting Richard on him. Sayid's bullet may just be the icing on the cake - perhaps it explains why he's prepared to be quite so callous towards the 815ers in particular - but he's already turning into the Ben we know and love [to hate].

But even if Sayid does have an effect on Ben's future actions, it's not really a paradox, just a question of perspective.

As far as we know, until he turns the FDW, Ben has lived in linear time and never time travelled. So from his point of view - he is born, he goes to the Island, and in 1977 a mysterious "hostile" shows up, shoots him and legs it. He survives but learns never to trust anyone - even those he is desperate to join. Presumably at some point after that he learns from Richard that Sayid wasn't actually a Hostile, and he may even figure out that he was a time traveller. In 2004, Flight 815 crashes, and when Ben finds out Sayid was on the plane, along with various other people he knew from 1977, things start to make sense and plans form in his mind...

So the "chicken or egg" question has a clear answer. In this case the question is "bullet or evil", and the answer is "bullet". Sayid experiences these events in the wrong order, because he's been travelling through time, but the bullet always happened first. The paradox only exists from his perspective. (Since we're learning about these events through Sayid's eyes, it also appears paradoxical to us, but this is half the fun of watching the show unfold )

(By way of contrast - an actual paradox would happen if Sayid killed Ben in 1977, but then Ben was still alive in 2004. That would require some kind of cop-out "alternate timeline" or "usurper Ben" explanation, as people have mentioned earlier, but I don't think this is where the show is going.)

Until TPTB actually revert the "Whatever Happened, Happened" rule and show Mrs Hawking & Daniel to be wrong, I think this "linear perspective" is how we have to understand things.

Hope that makes sense?

[Cliff Hanger]

Yehh it makes sense to me but it still leaves us with the question of why or how the LTT came to travel back in the first place. Was it not because of a chain of events caused by their presence there in the first place? So if they were never in 1977 and doing the things we now see them doing, then the circumstances which lead them to travel back in 2007 would never have been in place and therefore they would never have travelled back.
I fully understand whats being presented to us on the show and it is intriguing to watch and see how what they do now ties back to events we saw in S1 etc. They are presenting us with the theory that "If it is going to happen, then it will happen, and if will happen then it has always happened". My logical mind see's this as a cop out. The events we are seeing in 1977 now was not always how 1977 was. It only became like that after the LTT went back in 2007. So from 2007 onwards the 1977 onwards timeline is altered and ends up leading to events we see and learn about in S1(2004). But before the LTT went back in 2007, history must have been different without their impact. My simple point being that there had to be a pre-LTT 1977-2007 and then a post-LTT 1977-2007. I think we have been presented so far with the later all through the series, but something else must have led them to travel back in time in the first place.
I just wonder if the show will stick with "If it is going to happen, then it will happen, and if will happen then it has always happened". I personally hope for something else but am not holding my breath. I can live with it if alot of the other questions are given satisfactory conclusions - Smokie, Jacob, Aaron, Four Toes etc.

[sharpswifty]

"If it is going to happen, then it will happen, and if will happen then it has always happened"

people keep misquoting this, wasn't it just 'whatever happened, happened'?

and yes i do think it's important, because it implies that the OUTCOME, not the EVENTS, must remain the same. so they losties in dharma time may not be changing anything, just pushing the original 'triggers' out of the way.

then again with jin stopping whatsherface from going scoobydoo-ing in the haunted temple and sawyer and juliet saving amy, it hints at the opposite, that they WERE the original triggers. it could go either way i guess.