Discuss "Lord of the Flies" (main thread)

[schoolmann]

I read LOTF for the first time a couple of months ago, and immediately saw several similarities to Lost, especially the first season. The crash survivors recognize the need to organize (live together, die alone), and two leaders emerge: Ralph, who is focused on getting the group rescued (Jack), and Jack, who is focused on survival on the island and loses any interest in being rescued (Locke). Jack/Locke resents the early leadership of Ralph/Jack and focuses on hunting boar. I don't really see a Piggy character on Lost. Piggy represents rationality: if anything, Lost's Jack is a combination of Ralph and Piggy. I'll have to reread the book for Simon's character; what I recall is his hiding place and him sinking into madness. The irrational fear of the Others and the dead parachutist (a la Henry Gale, dead balloonist) are other references.

[gt8595b]

I don't know... (by the way, huge spoilers for LotF)
EDIT: I use 'he' and 'man' just out of convenience - women can go crazy too.

I don't see much deep similarity between LotF and Lost. Yeah, there are some superficial similarities (Island, plane wreck, parachute man, two groups), but they don't mean the same. In LotF, one of the main themes was based around civilized man breaking down into chaos as soon as external constraints of order are lifted, and I just don't see this them being displayed in lost. Sure Locke doesn't want to be rescued, but that's not because he's gone savage like Jack from the book. In the book Jack isn't just someone who doesn't care about being rescued; he's left behind all the aspects that civilized man prides himself on. Jack lets Roger be his "whip" and they turn to torture and murder FOR THE PURE PLEASURE OF IT. This is the evil of chaos. I don't see this showing up either; sure there were fights and Sayid did torture Sawyer, but at the time it seemed justified, and Sayid felt so guilty that he thought he couldn't fit back into society. This is not the same. Jack (in the book) and Roger blow right past the line of sanity and civility and never look back.

Piggy is more than just thinking and good ideas - he's spurned logic and responsibility. Everyone knows Piggy's right, but nobody likes Piggy or wants to do the psychological "work" it takes to remain civilized on the island. I don't see this aspect at all in Lost. Some people compare him to Hurley or Ben. But, the important thing about Piggy, that isn't in any of the Lost characters, is the rejection of logic and responsibility.

Ralph I think represents will-power. He knew that the most important thing was keeping the smoke signal going and he tried to get everyone to do it; he's will power with out intelligence. Not until the end of the book does he realize just how valuable Piggy was. In the first few days he doesn't pay enough attention to logic and gets caught up in the passion of chaos (this is the fire and first burning of the island). This isn't like LostJack. LostJack might not know exactly the right decision, but he listened to reason and he never let himself slide into chaos. He always kept the interests of the group in mind. Some people say that LostJack might be a combination of Ralph and Piggy, but again I say that Piggy is SPURNED logic, not just logic.

Simon is an interesting character. I've heard him compared to a Christ type figure: one who brings the truth but is sacrificed instead. This is the important thing to remember about Simon - he knew the truth (about the beast/parachute man), could not tell anyone (he had a deep fear of speaking to the assembly), and was ultimately sacrificed. He did have a one-sided conversation with the pig head, but that was primal fear rising up during his delirium, and in the end he rejected it because he went to find the "beast" anyway. Simon can be looked at as one's little inner voice - on your way to chaos it's the first thing to get rid of, one's conscience. I don't really see this character represented in Lost (except for maybe the science teacher that gets the dynamite and blows up). I would say that Ben might be close to this role, only because of his sacrifice that he must leave the island, but he doesn't really represent the prime 'goodness' that Simon seems to represent.

The beast in the book is the fear of the unknown that civilization (hopefully) keeps at bay. The beast in the book was completely made up and exaggerated by the children; however, the "beast" in Lost is very real. I'm thinking of the Cerebus creature as the beast.

Over all, I see that LotF represents the disintegration of society and civilization of man as soon as he is free of it's bounds. I also think of the main characters as all parts of one person's psyche. Each character represents a different aspect of the mind, and the book is a description of one person letting go as his base side (Jack and Roger) takes over from his civilized side (Simon, Ralph, and Piggy). Either way, I don't see these themes being explored in Lost. I don't recall their being a struggle between chaos and order on the show; there maybe struggles between different types of order within the Losties, but even Locke's "native way" doesn't turn everything into mindless destruction.

Just my humble opinion, and I look forward to discussion.
mike

[Jacob'sWiseOldMother]

I do see the "evil of chaos" on the Lost island. We have 2 groups of survivors of a plane wreck who are first secretly infiltrated and then attacked by the Others. These people called the Others are more violent with the Tailies group. The first night these Others come into the camp and kidnap people. Later on, they come again and take more people. But the thing that sets them apart is that they kill people to accomplish their mission. Ethan tries to kill Charlie and Goodwin has to kill Nathan so he doesn't reveal his cover. Goodwin was also ready to kill Anna Lucia once she discovered who he was. These Others do not follow the rules of civilization, they only do what they think is right for whatever this mission is on the island.

I relate LOTF to having an Others group (Jack and his hunters) and the survivors group (Ralph, Simon, Piggy and the little ones) One group(Others) is trying to bring in more members to its side and eventually destroy the group who is trying to get off the island (Losties).

[chelsea07]

I actually relate the two groups in Lord of The Flies to a different set of groups (not the others and the losties). OK, so in Lord of The Flies, the kids are all in one group originally. Then they split. I think of this when Jack and Locke split into two groups in Lost. Like one group is doing what they can to leave the island (that's Jack's (LOST) group, and that would be Ralph (LOTF) group as well). Then one group is staying on the island and figuring out how to survive on it (that's Locke's (LOST) group and Jack's (LOTF) group). Get what I'm saying???

[schoolmann]

Originally Posted by gt8595b

I don't know... I don't see much deep similarity between LotF and Lost. Yeah, there are some superficial similarities (Island, plane wreck, parachute man, two groups), but they don't mean the same. In LotF, one of the main themes was based around civilized man breaking down into chaos as soon as external constraints of order are lifted, and I just don't see this them being displayed in lost. Sure Locke doesn't want to be rescued, but that's not because he's gone savage like Jack from the book. In the book Jack isn't just someone who doesn't care about being rescued; he's left behind all the aspects that civilized man prides himself on. Jack lets Roger be his "whip" and they turn to torture and murder FOR THE PURE PLEASURE OF IT. This is the evil of chaos.

Mike, I don't think that anyone is suggesting that Lost is just like LotF. Any analogy, if you press it closely enough, will break down. But I think the trajectory that Lost began on followed a similar trajectory to LotF. It seems to me that you're ignoring the development in LotF: Jack doesn't start out reveling in torture and murder; he becomes that way over time. And Locke didn't start out throwing knives into anyone holding a phone; he started out hunting boar for the good of the group (as did LotF Jack), then got obsessed with the Hatch and the Island, then started systematically sabotaging every means of communication or escape. He also thinks that living in the Barracks, like the Others have been doing, is "cheating"--he doesn't even want the technological trappings of civilization. He's gone power-mad with his group, and banishes Kate for bringing his two prisoners into contact with one another. The end result of Locke's trajectory is Rousseau (the Enlightenment philosopher's names here are not accidental); she'd killed the rest of her party and lived alone in the jungle setting traps for everyone else.

You also have to take into account that LotF was about children, who more easily throw off societal restraint than adults, and the fact that Lost had different ambitions than a relatively simple descent into madness and then rescue at the end. I don't think that makes the parallels superficial; I think LotF provided the basic foundation from which the Lost writers are telling a different, but related, story.

[etshadow]

Like Carrie last month was more towards the story telling style of Lost, LOFT is more towards the setting and situation. I can see a lot of charater traits between the two such as those mentioned. But we are also thinking along the lines of what has already occured. Remember after the O6 left the island and John became leader terrible things happened. Maybe this is a foretelling of the group that was left behind become more savage to survive.

Et Shadow

[etshadow]

Lord of the Flies is a loose translation of Greek for Beelzebub

[96jacks]

Wasn't it inferred, when Simon was talking to the pigs head, that he had experienced hallucinations like that before getting to the island? Im not sure because it has been a while since i read lotf but i thought he was supposed to have been mental already

[chelsea07]

Simon had epilepsy and was suffering from an epileptic seizure when he experienced the pig talking to him. Now, at the beginning of the book, the choir boys are all together at the meeting when the conch was blown and Simon fainted or something. (I read this book last year, so I don't recall exactly what happened). One of the boys, I think Jack said that Simon was always fainting at school and implied that it was no big deal. From this, a conclusion can be drawn that Simon suffered from epilepsy at school and was wrongly diagnosed due to lack of knowledge of the condition. So yes, Simon had epilepsy before coming to the island and suffered from seizures already.

[Jacob'sWiseOldMother]

Originally Posted by etshadow

Lord of the Flies is a loose translation of Greek for Beelzebub

Could this very loose translation of a religious type Devil be the island of Lost? In my book, the notes in the back pages talk about this and I find it interesting that they speak of Freud's Id as another example. They mention the survival of a host and that got me thinking that maybe our Lost island is "the" host and survives by preying off those that live on the island. That to keep it "alive", it needs certain people to help it survive. I could see the black smoke monster as the force that keeps the island in the balance that it strives for.