1x13 Hearts & Minds

[cabin fevah]

Thread for the discussion of The Lost Rewatch - Hearts & Minds

Wiki
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Hearts_and_minds

[cabin fevah]

Hopefully this episode helps theLOSTmap.

We get some clues about the compass, perhaps a relative location of the swan?
John's initiative and his story about Michaelangelo (sp?) - priceless.

"Lemme check my hip...nope! No Boone!"

The last flashback always weirds me out. Boone, pretty much, gets sexually assaulted...by a 20 yr. old.

All in all, good episode. Nothing big gets solved but a few easter eggs sticking out here and there.

[Mrs.locke]

Yeah, the whole Boone-Shannon s-x thing weirds me out. I know there is no "blood" relation, but they are always referring to themselves as brother and sister. So, I'm like...uh, no. That's just not right.

[Mrs.locke]

OK, so another thought, someone else brought it up somewhere I think. I have been looking at so much stuff its hard to say. Anyway... Does John have the sickness? Did he get it when he had his "encounter" with the island? Or does this just go along with the same theory that John was really the nemesis all along?

[Flyin' High]

OK, so another thought, someone else brought it up somewhere I think. I have been looking at so much stuff its hard to say. Anyway... Does John have the sickness? Did he get it when he had his "encounter" with the island? Or does this just go along with the same theory that John was really the nemesis all along?

I am 100% convinced that John does have the "sickness." I believe his encounter with the monster changed him and made him basically a disciple of the island. Starting with hitting Sayid over the head, continuing with hitting Boone over the head...Locke is not normal by any standards. Everything he says and does from the moment he faces the smoke monster is "for the island" and I don't think it's just because he was healed of his paralysis.

Rose was healed of her cancer and you don't see her walking around hitting people over the head and doing nothing to help the fellow survivors.

If Locke doesn't have the sickness at this point, then I don't know what to say about him other than I am so glad I'm not stranded on an island with him.

[ZEITGEIZT]

You don't just start discussion threads whenever you want. We are not this far on the schedule yet. Let's stay in line children.

[Lorite]

Agreed. Part of the discipline of the rewatch is that you don't start until it's on the schedule.

[hailey]

i was just coming to post what the above two said!
i know we're all excited, but if we keep going like this, we will get way too far ahead of ourselves...sunday night is one thing...but this is too early.
if you re watch ahead of schedule, just write your thoughts down, and then post them when its time... im not trying to be a nag...haha sorry.

[MM0602]

This is the second Hearts & Minds thread that's been made too early. I never knew how popular this episode was :p

[cabin fevah]

Agreed. Part of the discipline of the rewatch is that you don't start until it's on the schedule.

M'bad :o...I was looking at the dates of creation for other episodes and I felt there had been too long a gap between threads.

Really. Sorry. I completely spaced the schedule.

[buddhaseye]

You don't just start discussion threads whenever you want. We are not this far on the schedule yet. Let's stay in line children.

Don't tell me what I can't do!:D

[MM0602]

Anyways I now rewatched it, and I agree, if Locke doesn't have the sickness he is one insane creep. Tying up Boone in the dark jungle? Um...

[Jayemel]

I am 100% convinced that John does have the "sickness." I believe his encounter with the monster changed him and made him basically a disciple of the island. Starting with hitting Sayid over the head, continuing with hitting Boone over the head...Locke is not normal by any standards. Everything he says and does from the moment he faces the smoke monster is "for the island" and I don't think it's just because he was healed of his paralysis.

Rose was healed of her cancer and you don't see her walking around hitting people over the head and doing nothing to help the fellow survivors.

Except Rose has self esteem, and Locke doesn't.

[Flyin' High]

Except Rose has self esteem, and Locke doesn't.

You're saying a lack of self esteem makes a person go around hitting people over the head? Or tying them up against their will? I don't think something as simple as a lack of self esteem is the primary driving force behind Locke's actions. He is acting much more extreme than just a person who is down on themselves.

[Jayemel]

You're saying a lack of self esteem makes a person go around hitting people over the head? Or tying them up against their will? I don't think something as simple as a lack of self esteem is the primary driving force behind Locke's actions. He is acting much more extreme than just a person who is down on themselves.

He's acting like a person who is down on himself and tries to draw his self worth from an external force...like an island.

[Flyin' High]

He's acting like a person who is down on himself and tries to draw his self worth from an external force...like an island.

I agree with this. Certainly. I guess the only point I was trying to make originally is that both John and Rose have been healed by the island, so both have a reason to be grateful to it, but Locke is the one actually doing something about it. To me this is more than a lack of self esteem or gratitude at being healed, it's that Locke has actually communicated with the island and whether he consciously knows it or not has been "changed."

[Jayemel]

I agree with this. Certainly. I guess the only point I was trying to make originally is that both John and Rose have been healed by the island, so both have a reason to be grateful to it, but Locke is the one actually doing something about it. To me this is more than a lack of self esteem or gratitude at being healed, it's that Locke has actually communicated with the island and whether he consciously knows it or not has been "changed."

I disagree adamantly. Throughout the series, it has been shown that people with low self worth (attributed to "Daddy issues") seek out external forces to find that self worth to replace their father. It's what made Locke "amendable for coercion." He used the island as a father figure.

People are now saying Locke communicated with the island in Season 1 as a way of explaining how he was manipulated by "X." This explanation ignores all of Locke's character development since Season 1.

In contrast, Rose was never shown to hate herself or have father issues. In fact, her only issue was she had cancer. Therefore, her thought always was, "I'm not sick here. Why would I leave?" Likewise, Bernard's story was that he was always alone, not that he hated himself. Not coincidentally, two characters not amendable for coercion disappeared for an entire season and basically said they were living for themselves and don't care about anything else.

[Flyin' High]

I disagree adamantly. Throughout the series, it has been shown that people with low self worth (attributed to "Daddy issues") seek out external forces to find that self worth to replace their father. It's what made Locke "amendable for coercion." He used the island as a father figure.

People are now saying Locke communicated with the island in Season 1 as a way of explaining how he was manipulated by "X." This explanation ignores all of Locke's character development since Season 1.

In contrast, Rose was never shown to hate herself or have father issues. In fact, her only issue was she had cancer. Therefore, her thought always was, "I'm not sick here. Why would I leave?" Likewise, Bernard's story was that he was always alone, not that he hated himself. Not coincidentally, two characters not amendable for coercion disappeared for an entire season and basically said they were living for themselves and don't care about anything else.

What? First of all, I never once mentioned that I thought Locke was being manipulated by Jacob's nemesis from season one on. I don't think that at all. I don't think the smoke monster is Jacob's nemesis like a lot of people do. I think the smoke monster is it's own entity and I think it has the ability to "convert" people, give it Rousseau's so called "sickness". Maybe because Locke had low self esteem he was more easily "turned" by the island.

And I also don't see how him having been coerced by the smoke monster or the island into doing crazy things makes his story any less poetic or tragic. John Locke is the ultimate pathetic character and I think the writer's did an amazing job of telling his story. I also think Terry O'Quinn did an amazing job of portraying this broken down man.

[Jayemel]

What? First of all, I never once mentioned that I thought Locke was being manipulated by Jacob's nemesis from season one on. I don't think that at all.

Exactly. Thus, you made the following statement:


To me this is more than a lack of self esteem or gratitude at being healed, it's that Locke has actually communicated with the island and whether he consciously knows it or not has been "changed."

Thus, in order to refute the idea that Locke has been manipulated since Day One, you put forward the idea that he has "communicated" with the island.

I think the contrast between Rose and Locke, and my analysis of it, explains my position perfectly (as to how and why Locke was so easily manipulated).


I don't think the smoke monster is Jacob's nemesis like a lot of people do. I think the smoke monster is it's own entity and I think it has the ability to "convert" people, give it Rousseau's so called "sickness".

Except there has never been one other character that has been "converted." In contrast, there is a long history of apparitions of dead people created by the Monster. It is far more likely that Rousseau's crew was killed and then their forms were used as apparitions to attempt to manipulate her. This idea has even more credence considering how (un)Locke acted in The Incident. If we didn't learn about him being (un), a logical explanation would have been for us to say he was "sick" because he was acting "converted."

[Lost Fan 4815162342]

Couple questions here:

How did Locke know about hallucinogens on the island? Did he borrow a page out of Smokey's recipe book? Or did he pick that up in his time the commune? Granted he is quite resourceful, but really his behavior is off the chart. Whacking someone to make an open wound so you can apply a mind-altering drug! And people say Ben is creepy.

As to whether Locke is possessed/influenced by Loophole at this stage. I don’t think so. It could be Locke was shown things by Loophole via Smokey. Or it’s simply because Locke is more open to “magical” phenomena, whereas the rest of the survivors are more the “meat and potatoes” guy that Locke claimed he was. Locke has sort of appointed himself Shaman of the survivors.

I don’t think he was actually selected to be used by Loophole, if indeed that’s how it works out, until Ben hiked over to Lost camp. By that time Locke was on the Others' list. But I don’t think it’s because he's special — more gullible, perhaps. Or because Jack told Richard in 1977 not to give up on him.

One thing I thought of: If you are south of the equator, don't you orient yourself to the SOUTH pole? I don't know to be honest, but it would make sense. That would be the pole that would seem to have the most magnetic force? I'm guessing they used north simply because most people watching this show are on the north side of the equator. Granted it's more or less a moot point since it a polarity issue, but was just curious.

BTW, that compass. That isn't the one that Locke gave Richard who gave it to Locke who gave it to Richard who gave it to Locke who gave it to … ?

[Just Thinking]

Couple questions here:

How did Locke know about hallucinogens on the island? Did he borrow a page out of Smokey's recipe book? Or did he pick that up in his time the commune? Granted he is quite resourceful, but really his behavior is off the chart. Whacking someone to make an open wound so you can apply a mind-altering drug! And people say Ben is creepy.

As to whether Locke is possessed/influenced by Loophole at this stage. I don’t think so. It could be Locke was shown things by Loophole via Smokey. Or it’s simply because Locke is more open to “magical” phenomena, whereas the rest of the survivors are more the “meat and potatoes” guy that Locke claimed he was. Locke has sort of appointed himself Shaman of the survivors.

I don’t think he was actually selected to be used by Loophole, if indeed that’s how it works out, until Ben hiked over to Lost camp. By that time Locke was on the Others' list. But I don’t think it’s because he's special — more gullible, perhaps. Or because Jack told Richard in 1977 not to give up on him.

One thing I thought of: If you are south of the equator, don't you orient yourself to the SOUTH pole? I don't know to be honest, but it would make sense. That would be the pole that would seem to have the most magnetic force? I'm guessing they used north simply because most people watching this show are on the north side of the equator. Granted it's more or less a moot point since it a polarity issue, but was just curious.

BTW, that compass. That isn't the one that Locke gave Richard who gave it to Locke who gave it to Richard who gave it to Locke who gave it to … ?

Hope it's OK to discuss this one at this point- I agree that it's hard to see how Locke can do all these things without some kind of influence. How did he get to be a better tracker than Kate, to be able to hunt, to know all about the jungle environment? He was preparing to go to a desert before the crash, he couldn't practice outdoor skills except maybe knife throwing. It's one thing to read about the outdoors-but did he have enough practice as a Webelo to pull all this off? Also-when did he get to be a psychiatrist? We see him having pathetic conversations with a phone sex operator, totally oblivious to her thinking that of all her weird customers- he is the weirdest. Suddenly he knows how to rehab drug addicts and resolve relationship problems? I don't know what got to him, but can't see how he just became a different person.

About the compass- not sure- but I think one pole is positive and one negative, so the compass will always line up the same way. I thought it was neat the way the magnetic force wa introduced this early, and also Locke's comment that he doesn't need the compass anymore. Like he has something else to guide him now-he knows his way metaphorically.

[jypsi]

I think that the compass would still point north. The reason a compass points north is that there is a large chunk of iron floating around in Hudson Bay. So, even if you are in the southern hemisphere, your compass still orients north. (But on Lost, who knows?)

[Lost Fan 4815162342]

Well, it's clear I have no future as a sea captain. Thanks for the bits on the compass.

[splichanin]

I think that the compass would still point north. The reason a compass points north is that there is a large chunk of iron floating around in Hudson Bay. So, even if you are in the southern hemisphere, your compass still orients north. (But on Lost, who knows?)

Compass does point north everywhere (except on the North Pole itself), but the reason for it is Earth's Magnetic Field. More details can be found here: http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/compass1.htm

[DharmaVan]

Things I noticed/liked in the episode:

Hurley to Boone: "...people need food, man, solid food. This isn't a GAME."
Then, shortly thereafter, Locke to Boone regarding Sayid says, "We don't want to make an enemy of him. We're going to want him on our side."
Interesting scene w/Locke & Jack on the beach, staring out into the ocean talking and waiting for a ship to come in. It reminded me of Jacob & Nemesis on the beach in the Season 5 finale.
Charlie to Jack: "...if there's one person on this island I would put my absolute faith in to save us all it would be John Locke."
And, finally, there seemed to be a lot of varying main character connections happening: Kate & Sun, Hugo & Michael, Hugo & Jin, Locke & Sayid, Sayid & Shannon, and of course Sawyer & Boone in the first revealed off-island connection at the Sydney Police Station.

[Galactic Nuclei]

I totally think that Locke is being manipulated by Mr.X right off the bat.

[WeirdAl]

I'm sorry, but I actually broke down when Shannon "died". I mean, this guy's made out with his stepsister, never really paid much attention to her, and then she just gets killed by an as-yet-unseen monster? That's just gotta be way too hard for Boone to take. And then, of course, to realize that it was all a hallucination made him really angry and happy at the same time. (I still don't understand why Boone said he felt "releived" after Shannon's death. Did he really not care about her? He was weeping like, well, like someone who just saw their sibling get killed.)

[guibbs]

He said he felt relived because deep down he knows that Shannon uses him, she conned him into coming to Australia and giving money to her and her boyfriend, and when the boyfriend screwed her over and ran away, she appeared at his hotel asking to go back to the states with him, this has been their relationship all along, and because he loves her, he would always try to do anything to please her, and she knew that. When he saw her death he realized that his life would be more about him after she passed away, and after he realized that her death was an illusion, and having the knowledge that without Shannon he could be more in control of his life, he finally takes the decision to let go of her, because he knows she doesn't love him the same way he does.

[hailey]

[QUOTE=DharmaVan;1719482]

Charlie to Jack: "...if there's one person on this island I would put my absolute faith in to save us all it would be John Locke."
[QUOTE]

wow....i noticed this too. he who will save us all.....

i like kate learning sun can speak english.....and i totally hate shannon and boone sleeping together....i do not like pre-island shannon....
on island shannon on the other hand....i love....especially with sayid.

locke is so crazy in this episode...but i agree with charlie...i have total faith in him.

[hailey]

oh....also something i thought of...
when locke is going on about "how do we open a hatch with no handle, latch, etc..."...after he says this, i said to myself "knock"...jokingly...thinking about des in there...... and then it flashed to boone knocking on shannon/brians door....
i know it means nothing...but whatever...haha

[DharmaVan]

oh....also something i thought of...
when locke is going on about "how do we open a hatch with no handle, latch, etc..."...after he says this, i said to myself "knock"...jokingly...thinking about des in there...... and then it flashed to boone knocking on shannon/brians door....
i know it means nothing...but whatever...haha

I don't know hailey, maybe it isn't nothing. Seems kind of coincidental with the flashback knocking coming immediately after the question posed by Locke. Good catch!

[Just Thinking]

Speaking of building relationships- I liked how Jin and Hurley's story seemed a mini redemption. First Hurley transgressed by refusing Jin's sea urchin. Then he repented and went to ask Jin for help to learn to fish. He paid a penance in stepping on the urchin and accepting the urchin to eat from Jin when he offered it again. Finally he was forgiven and blessed when Jin gave him the fish- already cleaned!

I'm not saying Jin is supposed to be any kind of divine being- just thought it goes along with the redemption theme that tptb have talked about.

[faragay4faraday]

amazing episode

makes me miss Boone so much, he was a great character, and I go out on limb and say that his sudden death so early (1st season ... c'mon) was wasting a character with a potentially awesome storyline

but yes: sacrifice, Island, demanded, yadda yadda

I think Boone was awesome
also he was the hottest guy on LOST
and he made out with his step-sister

how cool is that?

frigging ... that's how cool

[Captain Bunny Killer]

Hope it's OK to discuss this one at this point- I agree that it's hard to see how Locke can do all these things without some kind of influence. How did he get to be a better tracker than Kate, to be able to hunt, to know all about the jungle environment? He was preparing to go to a desert before the crash, he couldn't practice outdoor skills except maybe knife throwing. It's one thing to read about the outdoors-but did he have enough practice as a Webelo to pull all this off? Also-when did he get to be a psychiatrist? We see him having pathetic conversations with a phone sex operator, totally oblivious to her thinking that of all her weird customers- he is the weirdest. Suddenly he knows how to rehab drug addicts and resolve relationship problems? I don't know what got to him, but can't see how he just became a different person.

I think too many people give Locke far less credit than he deserves for his skill and pass it off as a gift from the island or that *rolls eyes* he's really fLocke. Consider all the training Locke went through before arriving on the island:

-First, achieving the "rank" of Webelo. I was nevr a Cub Scout but I imagine he learned at least a few basic survival and woodsman skills in his time as a Webelo.
-Prior to stealing his kidney, Anthony Cooper spent quite a bit of time hunting with his son.
-After being paralyzed, Abaddon gives Locke the idea to go on a walkabout. This is four years before Locke finally flies to Australia to go on a walkabout and, presumably, he spends much of those four years preparing to go into the jungle with nothing but the clothes on his back and a knife (and, well, a wheelchair, I guess). Certainly, this is where he picked up the majority of the skills and know-how he displays gracefully on the island.

So, I think it's incredibly dismissive of Locke's character and short-sighted to think the island gave him these skills.


Things I noticed/liked in the episode:
Charlie to Jack: "...if there's one person on this island I would put my absolute faith in to save us all it would be John Locke."


I'm sure evryone else has had the same thought but I liked Charlie's choice of words here. It made me wonder what he would say if he was speaking about Jack: "...if there's one person on this island I would put my absolute science in to save us all it would be Jack Shephard." Heh. Doesn't have quite the same ring to it.


oh....also something i thought of...
when locke is going on about "how do we open a hatch with no handle, latch, etc..."...after he says this, i said to myself "knock"...jokingly...thinking about des in there...... and then it flashed to boone knocking on shannon/brians door....
i know it means nothing...but whatever...haha

I know I'm getting a bit ahead here but I find your observation interesting considering the giant "knock" that Locke and Boone rig up with the trebuchet. How the hell did Desmond NOT hear that and yet did hear an old man banging on the door several days later? I don't recall them addressing that in "Live Together, Die Alone" and I wish they had.

As for the compass, I had the same thought about its greater significance with Locke and Richard. I attached a pic of the compass Richard shows to young Locke (I don't know how to insert it directly into the post) and it does not look at all like the compass Locke gave to Sayid. However, according to Lostpedia, Locke arrived on the island with two compasses, so . . .

[faragay4faraday]

I think too many people give Locke far less credit than he deserves for his skill and pass it off as a gift from the island or that *rolls eyes* he's really fLocke. Consider all the training Locke went through before arriving on the island:

-First, achieving the "rank" of Webelo. I was nevr a Cub Scout but I imagine he learned at least a few basic survival and woodsman skills in his time as a Webelo.
-Prior to stealing his kidney, Anthony Cooper spent quite a bit of time hunting with his son.
-After being paralyzed, Abaddon gives Locke the idea to go on a walkabout. This is four years before Locke finally flies to Australia to go on a walkabout and, presumably, he spends much of those four years preparing to go into the jungle with nothing but the clothes on his back and a knife (and, well, a wheelchair, I guess). Certainly, this is where he picked up the majority of the skills and know-how he displays gracefully on the island.

So, I think it's incredibly dismissive of Locke's character and short-sighted to think the island gave him these skills.
my thoughts exactly, thank you

[Anfield Fox]

I LOVE the scene Locke tells Boone the story about the Statue of David. O'Quinn's acting during that scene is Oscar worthy.

[blacxthorne]

Umm... Boone is by no way a great character. He is a good person, but that's pretty much it. He's a lifeguard who can't do mouth-to-mouth, or even... um... swim! He's smarter than most... doors. He was a perfect candidate for death: Someone who wasn't useful, but still good; someone people might care about so it could have enough dramatic effect.

Don't get me wrong; I liked him... But I don't miss him.

[faragay4faraday]

I respectfully disagree: he could have turned out to be a spoiled brat like Shannon, but he was caring, interested in what Locke tried to teach him, and hell ... he WAS clever, also he risked his life to safe a drowning woman aaaaand ... he almost always had a witty comeback up his sleeve

yes, he had his fair share of mistakes ... but who on this bloody Island hadn't???

Boone made a great Padawan for Locke ... but Locke f#%&ed up, and his pupil died

[Just Thinking]

I think too many people give Locke far less credit than he deserves for his skill and pass it off as a gift from the island or that *rolls eyes* he's really fLocke. Consider all the training Locke went through before arriving on the island:

-First, achieving the "rank" of Webelo. I was nevr a Cub Scout but I imagine he learned at least a few basic survival and woodsman skills in his time as a Webelo.
-Prior to stealing his kidney, Anthony Cooper spent quite a bit of time hunting with his son.
-After being paralyzed, Abaddon gives Locke the idea to go on a walkabout. This is four years before Locke finally flies to Australia to go on a walkabout and, presumably, he spends much of those four years preparing to go into the jungle with nothing but the clothes on his back and a knife (and, well, a wheelchair, I guess). Certainly, this is where he picked up the majority of the skills and know-how he displays gracefully on the island.

So, I think it's incredibly dismissive of Locke's character and short-sighted to think the island gave him these skills.


Hmm- well skills require knowledge and experience. I find it believable that Jin can fish because he comes from a family of fisherman- he has fished his whole life. I can tie a boat to a dock because I learned the knot and can feel in my hands how you do it just thinking about it as I have done it many times. Native peoples who live off the land spend years learning how to survive in their environment as they are experiencing that environment. They know the things you can't learn from a book- how things feel and smell-what the atmosphere is like just before it's going to rain in the jungle.

Locke seems to know these things without the lifetime of experience they require. I would bet there are a lot of difficulties that can prevent you from catching a boar, even for an experienced boar hunter. But he brings home the bacon first time out, and I really doubt he's ever hunted boar in his life.

I also think the writers are trying to point this out to us. It would give him some credibility if he had made it to Eagle Scout, the highest rank in scouting where you get your picture in the local paper. But he didn't even reach the rank of Boy Scout- they're trying to show us his lack of skill and drive as a child. I agree he may have been inspired by the thought of destiny and the walkabout, but it still doesn't seem enough. When Boone doesn't believe that a regional collections manager for a box company could do what Locke does- I have to say I don't either.

[beccabee]

When I watched the show the first time through, I felt much as Captain Bunny Killer- obviously, I guess, since there wasn't much of an other option. But I guess I mean I felt fairly comfortable with Locke being able to do most of the stuff he does. He always seemed to have some kind of mystical commune with the island... but it never seemed to me to be so far-fetched as to be supernatural. It always seemed more... "inspired" to me.

Although, re-watching... the argument that Smokie caught that first boar, at least, is quite compelling. I still feel as though it's more of an "inspired by" than "directed to" thing. I admit it's more of a gut feeling... but there is a yearning to at least keep some of Locke's character there. We do lose a lot of... stuff, emotion or whatever, that we've invested in that character over 5 seasons, if we find out that most of his actions were called for by someone else.

In conclusion, I'm torn. :P

I do have to say, too, that Locke's box company line ( we made boxes.) is one of my all-time favorites. I live behind a small box company, so it feels like an in-joke, somehow.

(also, hi... short-time lurker, first time poster. )

[Anfield Fox]

amazing episode

makes me miss Boone so much, he was a great character, and I go out on limb and say that his sudden death so early (1st season ... c'mon) was wasting a character with a potentially awesome storyline

but yes: sacrifice, Island, demanded, yadda yadda

I think Boone was awesome
also he was the hottest guy on LOST
and he made out with his step-sister

how cool is that?

frigging ... that's how cool

Boone was a great character and what made him even better was he didn't follow the sterotype. He's good looking and rich and yet was also a nice guy like Hurley and Charlie. Actually the fact that he only ever had 2 short scenes with Hurley sucks, they could have made a great duo. However his death served a purpose and moved the story forward and i can't think of another character they could have killed in his place that would have had the same impact at the time so while it's sad, im just happy we have the first season with Boone.

[blacxthorne]

I do have to say, too, that Locke's box company line ( we made boxes.) is one of my all-time favorites.
Did you notice the tone when he delivered that line? It was almost like he was saying, "can you believe it?"

Amazing acting as always by O'Quinn.

(and hi.)

[littlemissbossy]

When Jacob's nemesis says at the end of season 5, "you have no idea what I've gone through to get here" or something like that, maybe he is referring to helping Locke all this time without taking over his body. Maybe in order to fully possess a person's body he has to somehow court them and really make sure they believe in the island? It would explain Locke's abilities and allow Locke to be himself until his death. Perhaps the other bodies the smoke monster has inhabited he can only borrow for a short time.

[DharmaVan]

When Jacob's nemesis says at the end of season 5, "you have no idea what I've gone through to get here" or something like that, maybe he is referring to helping Locke all this time without taking over his body. Maybe in order to fully possess a person's body he has to somehow court them and really make sure they believe in the island? It would explain Locke's abilities and allow Locke to be himself until his death. Perhaps the other bodies the smoke monster has inhabited he can only borrow for a short time.

My thoughts exactly. It's Jacob's nemesis' long con. I loved that line at the end of Season 5 and related it back to the long journey he brought Locke through to get to this point.

[Kinuvia]

My thoughts exactly. It's Jacob's nemesis' long con. I loved that line at the end of Season 5 and related it back to the long journey he brought Locke through to get to this point.

So going back to the season finale when Jacob is there as Locke is thrown out the window.. doesn't he something like "I'm sorry for what you are going through," or "going to go through" or something? Is he apologizing at that point to Locke for what he knows is in store for Locke after his nemesis begins to manipulate him? I'm a bit hazy on what Jacob said to him, but it seemed odd.

[faragay4faraday]

Don't worry, everything's gonna be alright. I'm sorry this happened to you
that's what he said ... the wiki is everybody's friend, use it :)

[Jack Shephard's twin]

Locke was 'possessed' (I don't mean that in the literal sense, I'm in the he didn't get taken over by X until his return to the island camp) but in this episode he was so driven, so determined. One of Locke's best episodes, and everything that he stands for in my opinion. He knew that at some point convincing Boone 100% was going to be a task, so he waited until Boone brought it up, popped him on the head, twenty minutes later and hey presto :D

Someone said it earlier in the thread, O'Quinn's acting while talking about the Statue of David was awesome. Up until now Locke (on island) has primarily been a hunter, but this episode shifted his focus somewhat, something I was very greatful for. Good foreshadowing in 1x13 too, with some of the comments made by certain memebers of the camp, particularly Charlie's line about anyone who can save us, it's Locke.

Best quote of the episode HAS to come in the discussion between Boone and Locke after he's just knocked Boone out.

"Hey, what the hell is this?! Locke?! You hear me? Untie me RIGHT now!"

"Or what?"

Awesome Locke \o/

[blacxthorne]

It's great that the Michelangelo speech touched on father issues. At this point we don't know anything about Locke's father.

[Captain Bunny Killer]

When Jacob's nemesis says at the end of season 5, "you have no idea what I've gone through to get here" or something like that, maybe he is referring to helping Locke all this time without taking over his body. Maybe in order to fully possess a person's body he has to somehow court them and really make sure they believe in the island? It would explain Locke's abilities and allow Locke to be himself until his death. Perhaps the other bodies the smoke monster has inhabited he can only borrow for a short time.

I like this idea but I think the loophole Mr. X was searching for has more to do with Ben than Locke, that the loophole is leading someone else to kill Jacob. Otherwise, why would fLocke have needed to bring him along and want him to kill Jacob instead of doing it himself? I'm sure this isn't a new thought but I think it works well with the long con that DharmaVan mentioned, the con involving both Locke and Ben. I believe that fLocke only intended for Ben and Ben only to kill Jacob but Jacob saying "They're coming" (whatevr that may mean; my money is on the return of the 1977 Losties) is what prompted fLocke to push him into the fire.

[imbeanie]

Some thoughts.... the title, "Hearts and Minds' was not as immediately relevant as some are, or as punning, although I did feel it encapsulated what myself and others (not the Others...) have said about the rewatch: these early episodes captured our Hearts, sometimes through the emotional "small" character moments, or got our hearts pounding during the many scary sequences; the newer episodes tend to engage our Minds more, as complicated puzzles that are more cerebral but less moving. Both are part of what make "Lost" so enjoyable.
.... I wondered about the precise relevance of Locke saying "we need Sayid on our side;" replying to Jack about a ship coming, "I can be patient;" and about the compass: "I don't need it any more."
.... I'm also looking forward to seeing what else we will glean/surmise/discover after the next rewatch, after the conclusion of Season 6.

[Bombyx mori]

Hmm- well skills require knowledge and experience. I find it believable that Jin can fish because he comes from a family of fisherman- he has fished his whole life. I can tie a boat to a dock because I learned the knot and can feel in my hands how you do it just thinking about it as I have done it many times. Native peoples who live off the land spend years learning how to survive in their environment as they are experiencing that environment. They know the things you can't learn from a book- how things feel and smell-what the atmosphere is like just before it's going to rain in the jungle.

Locke seems to know these things without the lifetime of experience they require. I would bet there are a lot of difficulties that can prevent you from catching a boar, even for an experienced boar hunter. But he brings home the bacon first time out, and I really doubt he's ever hunted boar in his life.

I also think the writers are trying to point this out to us. It would give him some credibility if he had made it to Eagle Scout, the highest rank in scouting where you get your picture in the local paper. But he didn't even reach the rank of Boy Scout- they're trying to show us his lack of skill and drive as a child. I agree he may have been inspired by the thought of destiny and the walkabout, but it still doesn't seem enough. When Boone doesn't believe that a regional collections manager for a box company could do what Locke does- I have to say I don't either.


I agree that the writers are trying to point this out as the recap at the beginning of the episode includes Locke's scene with Boone about his box company job. Good point.

[Sawyerstyle31]

So going back to the season finale when Jacob is there as Locke is thrown out the window.. doesn't he something like "I'm sorry for what you are going through," or "going to go through" or something? Is he apologizing at that point to Locke for what he knows is in store for Locke after his nemesis begins to manipulate him? I'm a bit hazy on what Jacob said to him, but it seemed odd.

he says 'im sorry this happened to you'

[Joe1983]

Hi guys , soory im joining this rewatch kinda late.
I've seen all the epidodes to date, but not familiar with alot of the terms.
Smokey im guessing is the monster. Can someone quickly outline who Mr X and fLoke is reffering to?

Anyhoo, the whole discussion about locke being posessed.. humm remember in s5 when the island was doing its time jumping thing and Locke was going bak to the scenes he had witnessed before?
I get this feeling sometimes in s1 like when it starts raining etc. Maybe hes not posessed by the same being but someone is in him that has been in these situations before. Who knows. But I also agree that Locks survival skills are way too good for what we knw about him previous to the crash...
Wibelo when he was a kid? I remember taking taekwando lessons for a year when I was a kid and I can remember 1 move lol maybe 2. and im 26 Locke looks over 50... I dont buy that he upskilled whilst he was in a wheelchair..

[hailey]

mr.x is the man in black who we saw sitting with jacob in the s5 finale.
flocke refers to the fact that the person we thought was locke after he returned to the island, was really a fake. fake locke =flocke

and smokey is the smoke monster...yes.

[Joe1983]

ahh ok ty =P

[Dhguy]

There really isn't much going on in this episode is there? I mean besides Boone and the smoke monster incident, which i guess at the time would have been considered a major turning point for the monster mystery, there was really so much filler in this episode. Awkward dialogue between Hurly and Jin took up way too much space, more Awkward dialogue between Charlie and Rose. Filler with Kate and Sun. it was just an all around snoozy episode.

What really bothers me the most is that how Claire has now been abducted for 2 episodes and no one seems to even care anymore. It's so out of character for Jack to not be doing everything he can possibly do to try to find Claire. Everyone on the island is just sort of calm and not doing anything. No one is even in fear that these "others" might come back and abduct more people. No safety precausions were taken or anything. I just find it weird.

[Joe1983]

Well I kinda agree,but they did try and track her untill it rained and the rain washed away their tracks.... I mean they would have just been searching randomly after that.. so it kinda makes sense, but yeah the whole "we dont leave people behind" theme that runs in all these hero shows.. kinda goes against it.

[eidolon]

1. I love how the police officer taking Boone's report very emphatically stated, "So *NO* blood relationship?" So that the audience didn't freak out too badly, "Ewwwwwwwwww!!!!" at the scene of Boone and Shannon going at it. Like, 'It's okay -- there's no BLOOD relationship!" :)

2. What was the point of Locke's lesson to Boone? Ostensibly to release Boone from his obsession with Shannon, I know. But what was the *island's* reason?

3. Hmmmm ... Sawyer, Kate, and now Shannon all turn out to be con artists. Even Sun, conning people into thinking she doesn't know English. It's Grifter Hell. Season 6 we'll find out Jack used to trick kids into whitewashing fences for him. :)

[Lockeabout]

Interesting scene w/Locke & Jack on the beach, staring out into the ocean talking and waiting for a ship to come in. It reminded me of Jacob & Nemesis on the beach in the Season 5 finale. (Dharma Van posted-3 comment)

Great point DharmaVan, I noticed this also. I found it interesting they discussed a ship, but more importantly when Locke asks Jack if the conversation was just between them, and Jack says "always". I feel that response would be appropriate for a long time friend, yet they have only been on the island for 24 days. I might be reaching, but it felt very similar to the season 5 finale conversation with Jacob and M.I.B. Great find DharmVan

[Seany]

I'm very late to the rewatching. But I have been watching show since day one. I noticed many of the things people have said above and I feel that Locke is being influenced. I don't think that he is possessed by the MIB or has "the sickness" but I think getting desmond out of the swan is important to the end game and so it could be Jacob influencing him. I think even in the S5 finale Locke is still Locke but has direction from someone. The reason he needs Boone thinking clearly is because he helps Locke dig up the hatch.

I love Charlies line to Jack and it is very relevant.

[sdorian]

I've always liked Locke. I don't think he has "the sickness". I think, when he was healed, he knew, before the rest, that the island was special and he was - since he was looking for it with the walkabout - open enough to the idea of connecting to the island, letting the island guide. I think a lot of his actions were set up by his past, his anger, stubbornness, obsessiveness, desperate need (from being crippled, put down at work etc.) to feel special, to show what he is capable of, to have a purpose. And, again, he was already looking for it when he chose to go on the walkabout.

I see Locke hitting Boone over the head, though severe, like taking Charlie's heroin away. A really tough harsh thing that's for their own good. So they'll struggle on their own to overcome their problems (Charlie by choice, Boone more forced into it). But Locke, in a Socratic kind of way, knows people have to overcome adversity to be stronger and they have to do it themselves (why, later, Christian couldn't help John turn the wheel).

I think John's always tried to help people, just in a totally different style than Jack. My one exception to this I think would be killing Naomi, where he was tricked by Ben. John's weakness I think, which Ben obviously exploits (Ben's specialty) is wanting to believe he's special. Which, facing the realization that he's not/might not be, is why he almost committed suicide. And if he really did die (permanently) there, poor guy. Live all his life trying to be someone. Finally feels he can on the island. Then not convincing anyone to come back. becoming no one. and dying alone and probably despised. poor guy... (so, needless to say, I hope he really is alive and don't want to believe he's become evil...but maybe he wants to be the new Jacob??)

[sdorian]

also, though Locke may not have had the lifelong experiences (in addition to his training, reading, mental training etc.) to learn his skills, don't take dogged determination for granted. Especially if you've been kept down (mentally, physically) for a long time. The sheer will to do something, to prove yourself, can make yourself do it. John didn't catch the boar right away. It charged and the reality (this is tougher than reading about it) sunk in and Michael got hurt. But Locke (likely inspired by seeing the smoke monster, but I don't think it gave him any powers or anything) didn't give up.

[BadassTheo]

Locke- "You need to put aside your differences with Sayid- he's very competent. We don't want to make an enemy of him, we're going to want him on our side."

Hmm.

[amglenn1]

is the story locke said about michelangelo true?

[tomsshoeshe]

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