3x19 The Brig

[Jacob'sWiseOldMother]

Originally Posted by Richard Was Here

This episode bothers me.

John couldn't kill his father and have that on his conscience...so he gets Sawyer to do it, without a care in the world about Sawyer's conscience?

See, that's the sort of thing that blows me away about Locke. He is really one of the most selfish people on the island. Always making unilateral decisions that benefit HIS agenda...but which impact others immensely.

He does it on a grand scale with blowing up the sub (eliminating everyone's chance of getting off the island), and with refusing to allow Eko to continue entering the numbers (risking the very lives of everyone on the island). But this is just another example of it.

He constantly plays god with other people's lives to suit his own personal quest to 'find himself'. And it's horrible.

No consideration at all for others.

This was the main reason I was always on Jack's side of the Jack/Locke rivalry.

I guess I have to disagree with you about John being the one to "use" Sawyer. Richard is the one who gives John the information that John needed to accomplish the stupid goal that Ben gave him of killing his father. Granted, John probably did need to get rid of the hold that Cooper had on his life but John only followed the implied instructions of Richard to help himself "find your purpose". Richard wants to rid the Others of Ben's leadership and I'll bet this isn't the first time he has done that...Charles/Ben.

I think it was Sawyer's purpose also to kill Cooper just as he planned to all those years ago when he first wrote the letter as a little boy. This was also something that Sawyer needed to do to move on with his life and John only helped him accomplish this even though he had to con Sawyer to do it.

I also thought it was pretty good of John to steal that tape recorder and help out the beach losties because he thought Juliet was going to help Ben take the pregnant women but luckily for them she didn't follow through. John could have easily ignored what Ben was trying to do and not try to help his survivor friends at all which could have resulted in many of them being killed.

[reesie4422]

So I love this episode now after watching S5. I am more convinced than ever that the MM is Locke, well, since he arrived on the island. We know that MM couldn't kill Jacob, and I believe that he can't actually kill anyone for some reason, neither can Jacob. That's why Locke had to have Sawyer kill his dad. He yelled at Sawyer and told him that he "couldn't kill him". I believe he had to kill his dad to continue making Ben feel like he was in charge. I think the others know who Locke is, that is why the lady tells him they have been waiting for him. As for her, I think she is just one of his people who came back to the island like some of Jacob's did in S5. Also, in the cabin scene in the next episode, Locke gets really upset at Ben for tricking him into thinking that Jacob was really there. I think Locke was ready to have Ben kill Jacob, but he realized that Ben was just pretending to talk to Jacob and got upset. He started yelling at Ben telling him that he knew nothing about the island. So basically, I think all the others have been pretending to view Ben as a leader because they knew their real leader, MM, needed Ben to kill Jacob, which is the 'loophole'.

[Jesus_Stick]

"I am more convinced than ever that the MM is Locke, well, since he arrived on the island. We know that MM couldn't kill Jacob, and I believe that he can't actually kill anyone for some reason, neither can Jacob. That's why Locke had to have Sawyer kill his dad. He yelled at Sawyer and told him that he "couldn't kill him". I believe he had to kill his dad to continue making Ben feel like he was in charge. I think the others know who Locke is, that is why the lady tells him they have been waiting for him. As for her, I think she is just one of his people who came back to the island like some of Jacob's did in S5."


These are also my thoughts after this episode, the fact that Locke has never actually killed anyone on the island to my knowledge also runs with this idea!

With the extra passengers of 316 using it to get to the island, I don't feel like its a huge stretch for Cindy to have been using 815 in the same way (this could also account for all the other passengers that got taken by the others from the Tailies camp)

The others were blatantly waiting for Locke, when the time flashes occur in Season 5 Locke essentially tells them that he is going to be their leader, although this is essentially proven to be the only reason that Locke is ever seen as special! His own quotes and talkings to the others during the time flashes are the only reason he was considered as special in the first place!

[Dr. Chameleon]

Originally Posted by Jesus_Stick

"I am more convinced than ever that the MM is Locke, well, since he arrived on the island. We know that MM couldn't kill Jacob, and I believe that he can't actually kill anyone for some reason, neither can Jacob. That's why Locke had to have Sawyer kill his dad. He yelled at Sawyer and told him that he "couldn't kill him". I believe he had to kill his dad to continue making Ben feel like he was in charge. I think the others know who Locke is, that is why the lady tells him they have been waiting for him. As for her, I think she is just one of his people who came back to the island like some of Jacob's did in S5."


These are also my thoughts after this episode, the fact that Locke has never actually killed anyone on the island to my knowledge also runs with this idea!

With the extra passengers of 316 using it to get to the island, I don't feel like its a huge stretch for Cindy to have been using 815 in the same way (this could also account for all the other passengers that got taken by the others from the Tailies camp)

The others were blatantly waiting for Locke, when the time flashes occur in Season 5 Locke essentially tells them that he is going to be their leader, although this is essentially proven to be the only reason that Locke is ever seen as special! His own quotes and talkings to the others during the time flashes are the only reason he was considered as special in the first place!

Hmmm. Well, she didn't die immediately, but Locke did knife Naomi in the back and she eventually died from that wound. Interesting point though, especially since Locke also balks on shooting Jack.

I have been generally opposed to the "MM has been Locke all along" theory, except that in a few of these examples you both mentioned it sort of makes sense. Here's a way of explaining it further: Locke has had MM "inside him" since he faced the monster in the jungle in "Walkabout," but he is not consciously aware of the presence and MM is only controlling his actions sometimes. The Others recognize this presence and hence Locke's specialness, even though he isn't aware of it himself. Now if this were true (and granted, it almost certainly isn't), perhaps when Locke turned the wheel he was split into two entities. The one that turned up off-island three years later was simply Locke. The one that was left on the island (and I know people have already suggested this) was pure MM and bided his time (or got up to other shenanigans we don't know about yet) until the Ajira flight crashed and he proceeded to take Locke's place. This would explain why there were two Lockes (the one in the crate and the one walking around and talking). Doesn't explain why Flocke knew that Ben killed Locke, though. Just messing around with ideas, here.

[Jesus_Stick]

I'm thinking that MIB was having some influence over Locke since Locke first saw whatever he saw in Walkabout rather than being in control of him, I mean Locke managed to pick out when the rain was going to stop, had an uncanny nack of randomly appearing when he was needed the most and seemed to be led "by the island" so I'm calling some sort of influence since Walkabout.

I like your idea with the two Locke theory. This ties in nicely with one of the season 4 deleted scenes where Ben, after turning the wheel and arriving in Tunisia glances back to where he appeared only to see another Ben lying on the floor. I'm not entirely sure why that was cut out but it would add credit to your theory.

[Dr. Chameleon]

Originally Posted by Jesus_Stick

I'm thinking that MIB was having some influence over Locke since Locke first saw whatever he saw in Walkabout rather than being in control of him, I mean Locke managed to pick out when the rain was going to stop, had an uncanny nack of randomly appearing when he was needed the most and seemed to be led "by the island" so I'm calling some sort of influence since Walkabout.

I like your idea with the two Locke theory. This ties in nicely with one of the season 4 deleted scenes where Ben, after turning the wheel and arriving in Tunisia glances back to where he appeared only to see another Ben lying on the floor. I'm not entirely sure why that was cut out but it would add credit to your theory.

I was just reading about that the other day-- I haven't watched any of the bonus features on the season four discs yet. Gotta check that out!

The other clear sign of influence on Locke has been several visions that gave him information he wouldn't otherwise have known (which also happened to Eko, as I recall). First he sees the Nigerian plane crash (not sure why MiB would want him to go to the Pearl so badly, but whatever), then Boone shows him how to help Eko, and arguably Walt tells him to kill Naomi (we don't know what Walt said exactly or if it really was Walt). More critically, perhaps, he has the vision of Horace that leads him to the cabin.

[sdorian]

so...they never explained how Locke supposedly brought Cooper there.

Ben: no one will get hurt?! like Charlie?! or, if he's just thinking if his people, Ethan? grrr Ben evil. It's not a gesture of free will if you're following someone else's orders. Again I think Ben wants to knock Locke down a peg, to his level, see if he can kill his father like Ben did. And Ben, jealous of Locke's connection with the island, wants to have control over Locke, make Locke feel he knows more etc.

and what crashed into the water if the helicopter's ok?

Naomi was probably instructed by Charles Widmore to say she was there for Des from Penny so that if they found the Others, the Others might not know its Charles Widmore...and she could infiltrate them to get Ben. Naomi could think these are the Others and they're lying about 815.

I think Ben must have alterior motives for wanting Cooper dead. And I think Locke gets Ben to kill Jacob to get back at him for trying to force him to kill Cooper. similar situation. It shows the power structure between Ben and Locke has reversed, now Locke can influence Ben.

I've said this in another thread, but I think Locke did the right thing. He didn't do want Ben told him to. He didn't sink to Ben or Cooper's level, and showed he was a better person by not killing. And it led to Sawyer getting the revenge he needed.

I trust Richard Alpert. I wonder what Cooper's connection to the Island is, how he got there, and why he has to die.

This episode in particular really argues for the whole everyone's dead-this-is-purgatory idea. Which I still could maybe buy. As for Cooper's story, he's a con man, so I bet it's all a lie.

I think Locke's inherently a good person and he wants to follow the Others now to fulfill his purpose and learn about the island. But, even if Ben is killed, they're not trustworthy or kind. They kill, manipulate, deceive, and follow these orders without question. (I suppose the Losties do this too, but still, I didn't want Locke to betray the Losties and go with the Others.) But I do really like that Locke says he's not a mole, he's not playing sides, he's on his own journey now.

[locke-n-load]

[quote=sdorian;2124395]so...they never explained how Locke supposedly brought Cooper there.

Dude, richard physically brought him there. Ben told him to in The Man From Tallahassee. This is also made rather evident by Coopers description of the event where the 'paramedic' smiled as he put the IV in his arm.

[Dr. Chameleon]

Originally Posted by sdorian

and what crashed into the water if the helicopter's ok?

I trust Richard Alpert.

I'm pretty sure the Kahana started out with two helicopters. Naomi crashed one. http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Helicopter

I have to admit when season three was airing I did not believe there was really a helicopter nor that Naomi came from off island, I was sure it was just another one of Ben's ruses. Of course, the show set us up to be paranoid and overthink everything. I once thought Charlie was an Other, too.

I love the character, but I do *not* trust Richard, especially since he gives Locke the idea to have Sawyer kill Cooper. Not cool.

[Delameko]

I think Ben's "task" would have also condemned Locke if he'd killed his father himself. He says to Kate in an earlier episode "they [the Others] told me what you did [killed her father], and they're not very forgiving". Makes me think that if had slit his father's throat he would also have been thrown out, but he also needed his father dead to join up - he found the "loophole".

I hate Jack in this episode I want to slap him so bad. Paraphrasing:
Kate: No one told you about Naomi because they don't trust you.
Juliet: We should tell her.
Jack: No.

Yeah, really inspires trust...