3x08 Flashes Before Your Eyes

[deneph]

Watched this the other day and two things stood out for me. Desmond discussing Penny moving in to his 'rat trap', which made me think of the mouse trap game but no biggie.
And then when Des was breaking up with Penny, her saying "don't you rewrite history", which could have meant what he was doing at the time or what he'll do this upcoming season.
Oh, one other thing stood out, he cleans up really nicely. )

[twenty-three]

Okay... I have to admit... I have NEVER understood the so-called "mind travel" concept that was presented in Flashes (as well as The Constant). The way I see it.... if Desmond's BODY was not traveling back in time (only his "mind").... then he was simply dreaming. Which means that his encounters with Charlie, Penny, etc didn't actually happen. I'm willing to accept the far-fetched concept of time-travel, but, at the very least, it has to have some sense of plausibility... which mind-travel most certainly does not. However... if someone wants to explain the concept to me... I'm willing to listen.

[New Otherton]

Originally Posted by twenty-three

Okay... I have to admit... I have NEVER understood the so-called "mind travel" concept that was presented in Flashes (as well as The Constant). The way I see it.... if Desmond's BODY was not traveling back in time (only his "mind").... then he was simply dreaming. Which means that his encounters with Charlie, Penny, etc didn't actually happen. I'm willing to accept the far-fetched concept of time-travel, but, at the very least, it has to have some sense of plausibility... which mind-travel most certainly does not. However... if someone wants to explain the concept to me... I'm willing to listen.

It's not a new concept at all, one of the best books ever written, "Slaughterhouse Five" is based entirely on the idea of consciousness time travel. Think of "the mind" or consciousness as a grouping of particles, or energy or what have you. You send it back through time or forward in time at a quantum level, the same way you would a body (if you could). If anything, the consciousness would have no mass making it theoretically easier to send it backward or forward in time.

When that energy goes back in time, it's still going to need it's physical body to be anchored to, it's just going to know things the present consciousness doesn't, or not know things the present consciousness does, depending on which direction it travels in.

[twenty-three]

Originally Posted by New Otherton

It's not a new concept at all, one of the best books ever written, "Slaughterhouse Five" is based entirely on the idea of consciousness time travel. Think of "the mind" or consciousness as a grouping of particles, or energy or what have you. You send it back through time or forward in time at a quantum level, the same way you would a body (if you could). If anything, the consciousness would have no mass making it theoretically easier to send it backward or forward in time.

When that energy goes back in time, it's still going to need it's physical body to be anchored to, it's just going to know things the present consciousness doesn't, or not know things the present consciousness does, depending on which direction it travels in.

Thank you... that explanation was very helpful. But how does the traveling consciousness co-exist with the past consciousness in the same body? Doesn't the paradox issue come into play?

[New Otherton]

Originally Posted by twenty-three

Thank you... that explanation was very helpful. But how does the traveling consciousness co-exist with the past consciousness in the same body? Doesn't the paradox issue come into play?

Well, one of the consciousnesses (from what we've seen on the show, always the one NOT travelling) seems to go into a hibernation state, or a forced coma by the other consciousness. In FBYE, it seemed Des was sometimes his 1994 self, and sometimes his 2004 self. What's cool about this, and very convenient for the writers, is that when one consciousness is dominant, it will be the only one experiencing whatever it is seeing. Hence Desmond not remembering Charlie in the middle of London. His 1994 mind never had the encounter, his 2004 time travelling mind did.

[JZ5]

Originally Posted by JD84

I was thinking that Widmore & Hawking set up that red shoe incident to make desmond believe.

I was about to respond to the above comment and ask "Even the red shoe guy dying incident?"

Then I read this..and i was like no way nah uh!

But then...he DID dig up graves and put them in a plane at the bottom of the ocean....

...interesting

[Joe1983]

OK remember when Locke predicted the rain in an episode in s01?
Desmond did the same thing in this episode. Could Locke have been a "back in time Locke" in s1?

[New Otherton]

Originally Posted by Joe1983

OK remember when Locke predicted the rain in an episode in s01?
Desmond did the same thing in this episode. Could Locke have been a "back in time Locke" in s1?

No, Locke was using his skills as an outdoorsman in that scene. Predicting rain is actually easy if you learn about presssure shifts and such. There's even a smell in the air just before it rains. Des predicted the rain because it was his 2004 consciousness remembering what happened that day.

[Dr. Chameleon]

I don't want to speculate too much, but I wonder if this episode doesn't give us a sort of clue as to where the beginning of S6 will be headed -- the consciousness of everyone at The Incident will be transported to some other time in their lives. When and how they get back to the present should be an interesting adventure, with some answers about the bigger picture thrown in...I hope. We shall see. But it might bring more meaning to Desmond's catchphrase "see you in another life, brother."

We learn a bit more about Widmore. His artwork seemingly connects him to Dharma but we know now that he was an Other. Due to his connection to Eloise, isn't it likely that his treatment of Desmond in this episode is intentional, to get him on the boat to the island?

Fate: Penny says to Desmond "fate has spared you a miserable existence."

Eloise Hawking's comments to Desmond seem like a time travel double entendre ("I can always tell the first timers"), and her opposition to choice would seem to put her in Mr. X's camp:

DESMOND: Oh, my God. You knew that was going to happen, didn't you? [she nods] Then why didn't you stop it? Why didn't you do anything?

MS. HAWKING: Because it wouldn't matter. Had I warned him about the scaffolding tomorrow he'd be hit by a taxi. If I warned him about the taxi, he'd fall in the shower and break his neck. The universe, unfortunately, has a way of course correcting. That man was supposed to die. That was his path just as it's your path to go to the island. You don't do it because you choose to, Desmond. You do it because you're supposed to.

DESMOND: I'm going to meet Penny in an hour. I've got the ring; she'll say yes; I can choose whatever I want.

MS. HAWKING: You may not like your path, Desmond, but pushing that button is the only truly great thing that you will ever do.

I think it's interesting that Desmond first defies Eloise, but then caves in like she wants. Also he uses the military to escape just like he did with the abbey.

[karategrrl]

This is kinda petty, but Des said he was going to marry Penny and live happily ever after (paraphrasing) And Eloise said that wasn't going to happen...Does that mean Penny and Des get seperated again? They're pretty together in S5.

I think this was a good prep for S5 and the time shifts. It made it easier to accept in S4&S5 because we already had a taste for it.

Just like when Des's mind "traveled" and his body stayed in S4, I'm sure the same thing happened in this epi.

You could feel the whole show take a different feel after this epi...It wasn't just about the island conflict of the 2 groups...It gave it a bigger picture to think about.