1x13 Hearts & Minds

[buddhaseye]

Originally Posted by ZEITGEIZT

You don't just start discussion threads whenever you want. We are not this far on the schedule yet. Let's stay in line children.

Don't tell me what I can't do!

[MM0602]

Anyways I now rewatched it, and I agree, if Locke doesn't have the sickness he is one insane creep. Tying up Boone in the dark jungle? Um...

[Jayemel]

Originally Posted by Flyin' High

I am 100% convinced that John does have the "sickness." I believe his encounter with the monster changed him and made him basically a disciple of the island. Starting with hitting Sayid over the head, continuing with hitting Boone over the head...Locke is not normal by any standards. Everything he says and does from the moment he faces the smoke monster is "for the island" and I don't think it's just because he was healed of his paralysis.

Rose was healed of her cancer and you don't see her walking around hitting people over the head and doing nothing to help the fellow survivors.

Except Rose has self esteem, and Locke doesn't.

[Flyin' High]

Originally Posted by Jayemel

Except Rose has self esteem, and Locke doesn't.

You're saying a lack of self esteem makes a person go around hitting people over the head? Or tying them up against their will? I don't think something as simple as a lack of self esteem is the primary driving force behind Locke's actions. He is acting much more extreme than just a person who is down on themselves.

[Jayemel]

Originally Posted by Flyin' High

You're saying a lack of self esteem makes a person go around hitting people over the head? Or tying them up against their will? I don't think something as simple as a lack of self esteem is the primary driving force behind Locke's actions. He is acting much more extreme than just a person who is down on themselves.

He's acting like a person who is down on himself and tries to draw his self worth from an external force...like an island.

[Flyin' High]

Originally Posted by Jayemel

He's acting like a person who is down on himself and tries to draw his self worth from an external force...like an island.

I agree with this. Certainly. I guess the only point I was trying to make originally is that both John and Rose have been healed by the island, so both have a reason to be grateful to it, but Locke is the one actually doing something about it. To me this is more than a lack of self esteem or gratitude at being healed, it's that Locke has actually communicated with the island and whether he consciously knows it or not has been "changed."

[Jayemel]

Originally Posted by Flyin' High

I agree with this. Certainly. I guess the only point I was trying to make originally is that both John and Rose have been healed by the island, so both have a reason to be grateful to it, but Locke is the one actually doing something about it. To me this is more than a lack of self esteem or gratitude at being healed, it's that Locke has actually communicated with the island and whether he consciously knows it or not has been "changed."

I disagree adamantly. Throughout the series, it has been shown that people with low self worth (attributed to "Daddy issues") seek out external forces to find that self worth to replace their father. It's what made Locke "amendable for coercion." He used the island as a father figure.

People are now saying Locke communicated with the island in Season 1 as a way of explaining how he was manipulated by "X." This explanation ignores all of Locke's character development since Season 1.

In contrast, Rose was never shown to hate herself or have father issues. In fact, her only issue was she had cancer. Therefore, her thought always was, "I'm not sick here. Why would I leave?" Likewise, Bernard's story was that he was always alone, not that he hated himself. Not coincidentally, two characters not amendable for coercion disappeared for an entire season and basically said they were living for themselves and don't care about anything else.

[Flyin' High]

Originally Posted by Jayemel

I disagree adamantly. Throughout the series, it has been shown that people with low self worth (attributed to "Daddy issues") seek out external forces to find that self worth to replace their father. It's what made Locke "amendable for coercion." He used the island as a father figure.

People are now saying Locke communicated with the island in Season 1 as a way of explaining how he was manipulated by "X." This explanation ignores all of Locke's character development since Season 1.

In contrast, Rose was never shown to hate herself or have father issues. In fact, her only issue was she had cancer. Therefore, her thought always was, "I'm not sick here. Why would I leave?" Likewise, Bernard's story was that he was always alone, not that he hated himself. Not coincidentally, two characters not amendable for coercion disappeared for an entire season and basically said they were living for themselves and don't care about anything else.

What? First of all, I never once mentioned that I thought Locke was being manipulated by Jacob's nemesis from season one on. I don't think that at all. I don't think the smoke monster is Jacob's nemesis like a lot of people do. I think the smoke monster is it's own entity and I think it has the ability to "convert" people, give it Rousseau's so called "sickness". Maybe because Locke had low self esteem he was more easily "turned" by the island.

And I also don't see how him having been coerced by the smoke monster or the island into doing crazy things makes his story any less poetic or tragic. John Locke is the ultimate pathetic character and I think the writer's did an amazing job of telling his story. I also think Terry O'Quinn did an amazing job of portraying this broken down man.

[Jayemel]

Originally Posted by Flyin' High

What? First of all, I never once mentioned that I thought Locke was being manipulated by Jacob's nemesis from season one on. I don't think that at all.

Exactly. Thus, you made the following statement:

Originally Posted by Flyin' High

To me this is more than a lack of self esteem or gratitude at being healed, it's that Locke has actually communicated with the island and whether he consciously knows it or not has been "changed."

Thus, in order to refute the idea that Locke has been manipulated since Day One, you put forward the idea that he has "communicated" with the island.

I think the contrast between Rose and Locke, and my analysis of it, explains my position perfectly (as to how and why Locke was so easily manipulated).

Originally Posted by Flyin' High

I don't think the smoke monster is Jacob's nemesis like a lot of people do. I think the smoke monster is it's own entity and I think it has the ability to "convert" people, give it Rousseau's so called "sickness".

Except there has never been one other character that has been "converted." In contrast, there is a long history of apparitions of dead people created by the Monster. It is far more likely that Rousseau's crew was killed and then their forms were used as apparitions to attempt to manipulate her. This idea has even more credence considering how (un)Locke acted in The Incident. If we didn't learn about him being (un), a logical explanation would have been for us to say he was "sick" because he was acting "converted."

[Lost Fan 4815162342]

Couple questions here:

How did Locke know about hallucinogens on the island? Did he borrow a page out of Smokey's recipe book? Or did he pick that up in his time the commune? Granted he is quite resourceful, but really his behavior is off the chart. Whacking someone to make an open wound so you can apply a mind-altering drug! And people say Ben is creepy.

As to whether Locke is possessed/influenced by Loophole at this stage. I don’t think so. It could be Locke was shown things by Loophole via Smokey. Or it’s simply because Locke is more open to “magical” phenomena, whereas the rest of the survivors are more the “meat and potatoes” guy that Locke claimed he was. Locke has sort of appointed himself Shaman of the survivors.

I don’t think he was actually selected to be used by Loophole, if indeed that’s how it works out, until Ben hiked over to Lost camp. By that time Locke was on the Others' list. But I don’t think it’s because he's special — more gullible, perhaps. Or because Jack told Richard in 1977 not to give up on him.

One thing I thought of: If you are south of the equator, don't you orient yourself to the SOUTH pole? I don't know to be honest, but it would make sense. That would be the pole that would seem to have the most magnetic force? I'm guessing they used north simply because most people watching this show are on the north side of the equator. Granted it's more or less a moot point since it a polarity issue, but was just curious.

BTW, that compass. That isn't the one that Locke gave Richard who gave it to Locke who gave it to Richard who gave it to Locke who gave it to … ?