1x08 Confidence Man

[Jayemel]

Originally Posted by Miss4pt0

Because what he is serious about is wasting time trying to get a cheap thrill while a girl is gasping for air, trying desperately to breathe, and those who could be looking for her medicine or focusing on helping her in other ways are focusing on him because he is pretending to have her medicine. This is low, even for him.

The response to this point is by blacxthorne. I quoted it below.

Additionally, you can't be held morally responsible for other peoples' choices and actions.

Originally Posted by blacxthorne

Sawyer said in S5 that Jack never thought; he pretty much just reacted. How true.

That jackass just assumed Sawyer had the inhalers and as the almighty heroic doctor, it never occurred to him that he might have just found Boone's book but not his bag.

Sawyer having his own book is also not considered as a possibility by either of them. They never said "Hey, we saw you with the book; we think you might have found Boone's bag. Shannon's inhalers were in that bag and we need them." Jack went straight up to him, and without even saying anything beforehand, he goes through Sawyer's stuff. And asks "where are they" or something like that.

Sawyer had every right to act like he did: If they're just gonna assume I did, then so be it; let's see what they can do about it. Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean he's responsible for everything that's going wrong.

Originally Posted by whiskeyJim

I would have given Sawyer a clear ultimatum for what he did in the first weeks of Season 1; clean it up right now, or banishment (Forget the torture). It's one thing to be a selfish idiot. Not everyone can be the smartest knife in the drawer. But when you're an amoral selfish idiot on an island trying to survive, well... only larger societies have time for leeches.

Who are you to banish him, lord and master of the island? That line of thought is exactly why people don't like Jack.

Furthermore, Sawyer was nowhere close to a leech. In fact, he was the exact opposite of it. He took care of himself and never asked anyone for help or anything.

Originally Posted by whiskeyJim

Actually, I watched all of LOST this year; never seen it before. I caught up with all the discs. When you watch it in a compressed time line, the character progression (or not) comes through better I think. For example, I was wildly surprised to come on to LOST forums and see how many people loved Sawyer. He's been a snake for 4 years. And even in S5 after Juliet, while he's not an asshat anymore, he sure ain't no hero. I still don't get all the love for the amoral prick. Where I come from, preying on married women or hoarding communal property gets you in a whole heap of trouble.

There's no such thing as "communal property." Property is a concept of individual rights. In fact, it was first written about by the real life John Locke. Yes, there is more of an argument to a community having property when there is more than one community. However, at this point in the series, they believed they were the only group on the island, meanings things either belonged to someone or no one.

[Sam McPherson]

http://blog.lostpedia.com/2009/06/lo...dence-man.html

[Pnkn]

Originally Posted by Mrs.locke

I don't see John as being selfish at all, just determined. He was very helpful, and also respectful of Michael. Like when he made the whistle then gave vincent to Michael to give to Walt...How can that be selfish? And he taught the other survivors how to hunt, or at least tried to. He was skilled and helpful, not selfish.

oh well maybe not...
he could be manipulating Michael so that he (locke) can spend more time with Michael.

Pnkn

[Jack Bauer]

Originally Posted by blacxthorne

Sawyer said in S5 that Jack never thought; he pretty much just reacted. How true.

That jackass just assumed Sawyer had the inhalers and as the almighty heroic doctor, it never occurred to him that he might have just found Boone's book but not his bag.

Sawyer having his own book is also not considered as a possibility by either of them. They never said "Hey, we saw you with the book; we think you might have found Boone's bag. Shannon's inhalers were in that bag and we need them." Jack went straight up to him, and without even saying anything beforehand, he goes through Sawyer's stuff. And asks "where are they" or something like that.

Sawyer had every right to act like he did: If they're just gonna assume I did, then so be it; let's see what they can do about it. Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean he's responsible for everything that's going wrong.

Meanwhile, although there were a lot of people who could "deal with" Sawyer, Jack decides to do so himself, leaving Shannon to her idiot brother who can't do mouth-to-mouth or even swim as a lifeguard. Very wise.

Kate did the same thing in Moth when he went all the way to catch them up to give her the news; she just said she wasn't interested in anything he would say. Once again, he thought 'well, screw you then; if you're not interested, I'm not telling'. I'm glad he did all these things and taught them a lesson. My reaction would be the same: If you're gonna assume I'm no good, then I won't be any good.

And like Just Thinking said, we could always see that Sawyer wasn't evil. His facial expressions did show that he was more than meets the eye. He did care, and he did have a human being inside. It was very obvious that it was all an act to protect himself.

But no, Jack needs to vilify someone so he could be the hero.

Also... I never hated Sawyer. That was not because I always thought he was a good, caring guy. Even if he was evil, he was a good character. I don't think Ben is a great guy, but he is an awesome character. I don't know why so many people would hate a character just because they don't think he's an angel. I don't care if he's good or not, he's fun to watch. He has great jokes, an attitude, an accent, and he's smarter and more realist than most.

I agree with EVERYTHING that you said

[sdorian]

"He's tragic, not evil." I agree. I didn't hate Sawyer in the beginning. I have a bunch of, I guess you'd call them "redneck" buddies, who, contrary to the stereotype, aren't stupid, but very well-read. One in particular reminds me of Sawyer. Anyway, I always liked him for his tough casualness and adaptability to survive. Rewatching this episode, you really see his self-loathing, his need to be punished because he's become the man he hated. But I think even the first time I watched it, I doubted he had the medicine and thought he was going through with it as a test, to see just how far Sayid and the "hero" would go "in the wild". What would they condone and justify, without knowing for sure he had the drugs? Testing to see how moral and heroic Jack really is, or if people are all just savage underneath.

And as for wanting Kate's kiss. Besides truly wanting it, it's slimy because it's all about control. and, as an excellent bluffer, seeing just how much he can get with an empty hand. reading people, playing their emotions. and passing the buck onto her. If she doesn't kiss him, Shannon's blood's on her hands now.

I love Sawyer's roughness, his casualness, and his tragic past. If I was Kate, I'd choose Sawyer over Jack.

[sdorian]

Originally Posted by blacxthorne

Jack needs to vilify someone so he could be the hero.

Also... I never hated Sawyer. That was not because I always thought he was a good, caring guy. Even if he was evil, he was a good character. I don't think Ben is a great guy, but he is an awesome character. I don't know why so many people would hate a character just because they don't think he's an angel.

I don't think Jack exactly needed someone to vilify so he could be the hero. That's what ended up happening, I just think Jack's a reluctant hero. Pushed into a leadership role he didn't want to be in. But in this episode I'm definitely with Sawyer. Sawyer showed them what they were capable of doing, what the hero would do.

I do hate Ben though. There's something I love about all the characters, except Shannon (I think she's just vain and uses people), Jin (he grew on me some over time, but I never was a fan), and especially Ben. I know they had to keep Ben around because he's fascinating to watch and a major important character and all that, but I think he's evil. There's so many times I'm wishing I could just shoot him myself!

[sdorian]

Who else thinks the peanut butter scene is adorable? (yay Charlie)

[sdorian]

poor Sayid. In light of his past, and then in season 5, working for Ben and after trying to do good in Santo Domingo...he never can find redemption

I didn't like that "new respectable" Sawyer/LaFleur turned Sayid over to "our you", but it is fitting after what Sayid did to him.